Paul Shrimpling: 0:05

Welcome to the Humanize the Numbers podcast series Leaders, managers and owners of ambitious accounting firms sharing insights, successes and issues that will challenge you and connect you and your firm to the ways and means of transforming your firm's results.

Sherelyn Cowles: 0:21

When you're happy, you exude that to other people, and people pick up on that. And when you're a bit, you know, miserable or you're not happy with what you're doing, people pick onto that as well, and it makes them feel a little bit low. So that's why you should always, I think, make sure your team are loving what they're doing, and if they're not, how can you help them to change that? Or what can you do to put in changes to make sure, because within such a big team, you're going to have people who love stuff that people hate, and vice versa. So I just think it's really important to make sure that your team are happy in the roles they're in.

Douglas Aitken: 1:01

How do you build a strong people culture in your accounting firm? Building a strong culture where team engagement is exceptionally high can be challenging at the best of times, but when your firm doubles in size every few years, it's even harder. How do we maintain and build team engagement in a time of huge growth? In this podcast with Sherilyn Cowles, the Chief Business Development Officer at Gooding Co, you'll find out the answer to these questions and more, and if you're anything like me, you'll be exceptionally proud of what they've done on the people front. Let's go to that podcast now, hi.

Sherelyn Cowles: 1:42

I'm Sherilyn and I'm the Chief Business Development Officer for Good In Accounts. We're an accountancy firm based in Wiltshire. We've got three offices and we're a team of 36 and we've been in business for the last 11 years.

Douglas Aitken: 1:58

Fab. Welcome to the podcast, sherilyn. Great to have you on. Tell us a little bit about yourself. What are your likes and dislikes, and do you have any family?

Sherelyn Cowles: 2:07

So I've got two children one Lauren 13, and Ollie 15. And I have them sort of 50-50 with my ex. They're great kids. They've got to the age now where they're just quite self-sufficient. So I've got a bit of my life back. So I like exercising, running, boxing, like going to the gym all the time. Um, love socializing. I'd go out quite a lot with friends, like drinking and eating and all that sort of thing. Um, yeah yeah, that's, yeah, that's me really.

Douglas Aitken: 2:47

So tell me about the running, because we know each other a little bit. Sherilyn and I know you undertook a fairly monumental challenge last year in relation to running. Tell us about that.

Sherelyn Cowles: 3:00

Yeah, so the managing partner of the firm I work for is also a friend of mine. I've known him for sort of eight or nine years. We met at the gym and we started running together and we'd done a couple of ultra marathons in the past just for shits and giggles. And last year was our 10-year anniversary and Sam wanted to raise £50,000 to support local charities wanted to raise 50 000 pounds for to support local charities so he decided that we were going to run five ultra marathons from may to september last year, so one a month. Um, after telling me the year before that that's the last time we're doing an ultra marathon, can we retire now? And I said yes, and then we did five.

Sherelyn Cowles: 3:43

So we trained really intensively from January to May. We didn't really. We followed a kind of plan. We were getting up at four in the morning on a Saturday morning. We did two ultra marathons in training, so we did 150k, 165k, and then in may last year we did our first one, which was london to brighton, which was 100 kilometers.

Sherelyn Cowles: 4:09

In june we did the cotswold trail, which was another 100. In july we did race to the stones, which is another 100, which I've done before and I absolutely hate it and I hated it again. And then in august we did a 50k which everyone was like, oh that's going to be easy for you, but it was actually one of the hardest because it was on the coast, uh, started off in minehead near butlins and it was horrendous, um, but I think when we got to the finish line if I'd have had to do another 50 on that one, it would have been tough. And then our final one was the Thames Path, 100 kilometres, which was completely flat, and it was an absolute joy that one. And yeah, we completed them all and we raised nearly £6,000 for a local children's hospice, so really pleased yeah.

Douglas Aitken: 4:59

Well, amazing result, but you're absolutely bonkers, the pair of you.

Sherelyn Cowles: 5:03

What's the?

Douglas Aitken: 5:03

definition of an ultra Anything over a marathon, so anything over 42 kilometers, yeah, okay, um, and and if I heard you right, you did at least a couple over 100. I mean that's just bonkers stuff.

Sherelyn Cowles: 5:17

We did four 100s, so yeah it was, it was quite I mean, we didn't know how it was going to go because we only had I think it was the shortest period. We had three weeks in between two of the hundred ones. So you don't really know what to do in between. So you've just run 100k. You wouldn't carry on with the training plan we were doing because you need to rest up slightly, but you also don't want to stop. But luckily neither of us got any injuries. We both were able to walk absolutely fine at the end. I was quite astounded because I'd done one the previous year and I'd got water on the knee and my knee ballooned up and I couldn't walk on it properly for two weeks. So yeah, I was quite worried that something like that was going to happen again, but thankfully it didn't. So we completed them all.

Douglas Aitken: 6:03

Oh wow again, but thankfully it didn't, so we completed them all. Oh wow, well, um. So, without getting too profane too quickly, what did you learn about yourself in the course of last year? And uh, doing that?

Sherelyn Cowles: 6:14

um that I, oh, I don't really know I get, I got.

Sherelyn Cowles: 6:20

I did get to a point where you kind of it's more about mental than physical, to a certain point where you just I know that I'm a really determined person anyway and I don't quit I hate quitting and I was determined that I was going to finish all those races, didn't care what happened. And Race of the Stones, I got to about 70 kilometers and I just felt so sick, it was untrue and I had to do 30 kilometres, feeling just awful, but I got through it. So I just think you know it just gives you that determination to just I think that people are capable of achieving so much more than they think they are. If you just have the right mindset, it's all. Mind over matter really.

Douglas Aitken: 7:03

Yeah, yeah, brilliant, brilliant point to make. Just have the right mindset, it's all. Mind over matter, really. Yeah, yeah, brilliant, um, brilliant point. To make my only equivalent. And there was nothing like what you did. A cycle lands in john a while ago and I had the same feelings every morning when I got back on the bike. Um, yeah, your bum was very sore for a kickoff, and so the first mile was horrible and and all you could think about was I've got another hundred miles to go. How am I going to possibly do that today? But then I also began to realize that every town is built in a valley. You get very few times built on the top of a hill, so you'd climb every morning. You'd climb as soon as you're back on the saddle. So it was double jeopardy. But yeah, I do get the mind over matter. Part yeah fabulous.

Speaker 4: 7:49

Well, well, well done. It was a great achievement.

Douglas Aitken: 7:52

Okay, I mean you might know from the podcast, um cheryl, and that it's called the human eyes, the numbers podcast. That's our purpose to humanize the numbers, bring a a human dimension to a numbers dominated profession. What does that mean to you? What does that phrase humanize the numbers? Bring a human dimension to a numbers dominated profession. What does that mean to you? What does that phrase humanize the numbers mean to you?

Sherelyn Cowles: 8:10

I mean, I think it's all about the fact that um traditional accountants, they just look at the numbers. They don't look at the clients and actually what their needs are, what their purpose is, what they want to achieve. They just want to get a set of accounts done um for them and do the compliance side of things and it's more transactional um. So to me it means about developing relationships with those people, looking at their figures, um, where do you want to be in five years time and how can we help you achieve that goal? And making sure that we're looking at all their expenses, what they're doing and how we can advise them um better to make sure that they're getting what they want out of their business.

Sherelyn Cowles: 8:55

So you know what's, what's your plan for 10 years time. Do you want to still be in it? Do you want to be leaving? Do you want to exit? Um? So it's it's more about look, you know, not just seeing a set of accounts and not just seeing the numbers coming in, and actually what does that mean to people? And and getting to know your clients really well, really getting to know them and what their needs are brilliant.

Douglas Aitken: 9:20

How do clients react to that kind of question? Because I would imagine that most clients haven't been asked that by their accountant. So how do clients react to that kind of question? Because I would imagine that most clients haven't been asked that by their accountant. So how do they react to you challenging them about what their goals are or where they want to be five years from now?

Sherelyn Cowles: 9:34

I think they well, a lot of them really are quite shocked that we're asking that and they like it, and they say, well, I've never been asked that before. I don't even talk to my accountant normally. You know I speak to them once a year when they want my records in and that's what they want, they love it. They're like. You know, we've done a lot of client meetings where they said I've got more from this introductory meeting than I've had in the last 10 years with the same accountant. So that's that's what people want. They want to feel the love. They want to know that you actually care about what they want and that you're seeing them as a person and not just numbers or money coming in.

Douglas Aitken: 10:10

You know yeah, brilliant, excellent. So tell us about the firm that you work with goodings. You've been there for how long now?

Sherelyn Cowles: 10:19

so I've been there for five years. This year I started in um lockdown about 2020, yeah. So part way through um, I was working for myself part-time because my children were younger. Um, that year, uh, I decided to get divorced, I needed to move house and I lost my biggest client. So so I came to work for Goodin Accounts and, yeah, started off as a bookkeeping team leader looking after the guys.

Sherelyn Cowles: 10:52

And then the business since then has evolved. We changed the structure, as you well know. We brought in all the values and the firm really grew and progressed from that point. So everything had to change. We needed to show that there was job roles that people could aspire to get into, so that all the trainees they knew that actually I can get to that point, there's a role there for me in the future. So we restructured everything and and I became the cfo and I did that for a couple of years. Was it a couple of years? Do you know what? I can't even remember. But um, um. Then, coming to actually the aga that you guys were, we had a discussion that we needed a business development person and Sam turned around to me and said I think you'd be good at that. You don't really love the role you're doing, do you? And I said, no, I don't.

Sherelyn Cowles: 11:54

And it's really interesting because both of us knew that but neither of us had spoken about it. And so we, you know, and so we at the firm it. And so we, you know, and so we at the firm, we want people to love what they do, not just come in, do their job and go home. We want them to actually really love what they're doing. So we've done an exercise as well, where we've asked them what do you like, what do you not like, what do you really hate? And we've tried to match their what they love to the role that they're in. And it's been really interesting because I think now people can see progression. People can see that actually we, we want to make sure they're happy with their work and they're happy coming in, and we want to. We've got that, those values in place and that culture that we want everyone to stick to. We want our clients to see that and we live to those values.

Douglas Aitken: 12:48

Um yeah, so it's I have to say.

Sherelyn Cowles: 12:50

I mean, I've had quite a lot of jobs in my time working and I absolutely love working there. You know there's always going to be little things that gripe you now and again, but, um, it's a great pace to work. It's a great team um, like I said, there's 36 of us at the moment and we've got quite a large client base and we've got some great clients who really appreciate what we're doing for them as well, and I just love going out and chatting to them and finding out. You know what's going on with them and you know what we can do to help them more. It's just that's what I love doing yeah, great.

Douglas Aitken: 13:29

Um, there's a lot to unpick there. Actually, for those listening, shirley, give us a feel for the trajectory that the firm has been on, because sam set up in what was it?

Sherelyn Cowles: 13:39

2014 that he set the firm up himself okay give us an idea. Yeah, so Sam, set up in his bedroom so he was working for a local firm decided that I don't want to work there anymore, I'm just going to go out on my own. Um, and he's really well known in the community, does a lot of refereeing, voluntary work, charity work, so he's got a lot of contacts and when they found out that he was going out on his own, he got quite a big client base quite quickly. And then he took on a couple of people um, one of whom still, I think she's been with us nine years now. Um, and it just grew from there. So then he moved into an office space and then he outgrew that and moved into the office we're in now and it's just. It's just expanded so quickly, um, and we've brought in so many processes so quickly. And sam is what we call a hurry up person.

Sherelyn Cowles: 14:38

I'm one myself, so I understand yeah um, where he gets an idea and he's like right, I want to do this, can we make it happen please? And then we have to make it happen and elise um, our head of operations, makes it happen. She works her butt off to make sure that all the processes are in place to make it happen and it's allowed the firm to grow massively in the last I mean I've been there five years we've doubled in size in team wise since I've been there, and it's just what we we now take on. We used to take on one apprentice every year. We're now taking on two or three a year.

Sherelyn Cowles: 15:21

But we no longer do it as apprenticeships because um, one of our chartered accountants, who came on with us as an apprentice and now is chartered and has been for the last couple of years, loves training people and that's his passion. So we set up a training academy and basically one day a week every week, all the new trainees come in and the people who do the aat and sam this is a different sam. He trains them all up, they do their, they go away, do their exams at the local center, which is actually local to us in bristol, and they've all passed their exams so much quicker than if they were at the local college. They're progressing so quickly. They're all getting really high pass rates and it's just great because, as well as being trained by one of our guys, it's all there. If they've got any queries, he's there on hand to ask all the time. So it's worked really well. So the idea is that we could maybe roll that out further in the future and that's also allowing people to develop quicker.

Sherelyn Cowles: 16:35

So we start everyone off as bookkeepers so they learn the fundamental basics of bookkeeping, and then the tendency is they go from bookkeeping to personal tax and then onto company accounts if they want to. So they might decide they want to stay in personal tax. They may decide even they want to stay in bookkeeping. It's entirely up to them. Um, or they want to progress further and do their chartered. So we will support them and train them along the way and it's worked out really well. And you know, like I say, some of the guys have gone on to do chartered. Some of them have decided to stop at level four um and then. But then we don't. That doesn't stunt their growth in the firm. If they don't want to go chartered, it doesn't mean they can't progress further. You know. It's just about what their skill set is, as well as their exams and their qualifications.

Douglas Aitken: 17:26

Yeah.

Sherelyn Cowles: 17:26

So we've seen a real progress. You know it's working really well for us.

Douglas Aitken: 17:31

Fab. Yeah, quite a great way to do it, you know. Bring it in-house and actually train yourself. And great to see the result as well, that people are progressing faster. Yeah, could be a real USP for your firm. People are progressing faster Could be a real USP for your firm. I'm thinking back to the early days of Sam Gooding now Sherla so back to 2014, when he set up in the bedroom, then got premises. How challenging do you think it's been for Sam to get out the way and let people do what they're good at?

Sherelyn Cowles: 18:03

Oh, massive, massive challenge. He's still now. It's really interesting. I'll be on the phone and I'll say something. And if he's in earshot, what was that about? And I say you don't need to know, don't?

Speaker 4: 18:17

you worry a little head about it.

Sherelyn Cowles: 18:18

I'm making about. But he he, I think where he's built this business from scratch. He's really proud of what he's done, and he should be because he's achieved so much, and fair play to him, um, but he's still. He worries, you know, because it's his name on the tin. So if he wants to know what's going on and I say to him you can't know what's going on every single time, but he wants to know in case someone still calls him, because he still has people calling, they've all got his phone number and he won't not answer because that's just the way he is.

Sherelyn Cowles: 18:56

He loves to help people, sometimes to his detriment, and causes himself work when he doesn't need to do it because he's got a team of people who can do it for him. But he is, um, he's getting better. I've seen, I've seen progression in the last couple of years with him as well, just being able to let go a little bit more. But he's still in the thick of it and I think that he likes it. He likes being in the thick of it, he likes knowing what's going on, but, yeah, I think he's struggled to let go in some aspects.

Sherelyn Cowles: 19:27

But he's definitely getting better definitely.

Douglas Aitken: 19:31

And he was brave enough to adopt a corporate type structure uh in the firm. So, my understanding, you've got um sam running the place, obviously, but you've got elise in operations, um, you've got someone in finance now, uh, doing that. You're in business development, stroke sales, um, so you can see that all the functions. In fact, you've got a marketing person as well, if I'm I'm right that's right, yeah, so we've got.

Sherelyn Cowles: 19:57

We've got, um so sam, and then his wife, katie. Katie now does most of the finance stuff. She took that from me. Um yeah, and then you've got. We've now also got as well as a marketing manager. We've got a hr lead as well yeah so sam saw a real gap um that a lot of clients were coming to us for hr advice and none of us are hr advisors.

Sherelyn Cowles: 20:24

Even I did an employment contract for someone you know, because I had the resources to do it, but it's like I'm not a HR person.

Sherelyn Cowles: 20:32

So we've actually now got a skilled HR person in the firm and she's we're offering HR advice to clients and it's great because it's like a one-stop shop now. They don't have to worry about it and they know they can come to us and we can help them with that as well. And yeah, we've got a marketing ladyma who came on um a couple of years ago and basically got all this charity stuff thrown at her. So, bless her, she just had she's. She had a huge list of things that she wanted to do, but her time just got swamped with all the charity stuff. But she did a great job of organizing it all and get promoting it all and you know we raised so much money off the back of that, but now she's finally able to really focus on what she wants to do and we've got some really good campaigns um going out soon. So that's really exciting and I'm working quite closely with her now on those as well.

Douglas Aitken: 21:32

So it's great yeah, so tell me about that transition to a corporate type structure, because a lot of firms listening will be potentially operating under the old partnership model. Yeah, you know what's? How did how did that transition go and how does it actually work nowadays?

Sherelyn Cowles: 21:52

um, so we had a practice manager originally. So sam was obviously he was doing a lot. He was going out doing all the business development himself. Um, we had no one doing any marketing as such. We had one of the admin team doing some social media, so it was sort of traditional, you know. And then Katie, um Sam's wife, who's the partner as well, was doing most of the reviewing and all that sort of thing.

Sherelyn Cowles: 22:20

Um, when the practice manager left, we had a sort of juggle round of oh my god, we've got all these jobs and we had team leaders then. But then when we changed the structure to a more corporate structure, it was like right now we've got this person who's going to deal with all the processes and procedures, and that's the main what we needed, because we didn't have written down. We had processes but we didn't have them written down. So if someone would say what's the process for this, you'd know it in your head. But if it's not written down, it's not going to be followed correctly by everyone. So that's really helped with. So much because the people have got clarity now. You know there's, there's a folder there. If you're not sure, go and have a a look. We've got workflows in place now. So we've got a proper system for workflows, so things. You know, everyone knows where they're at on what stage of a job. So it allowed us to streamline all that side of things.

Sherelyn Cowles: 23:27

Having a specific person to do marketing is massive because that's her focus. You know, trying to. In a traditional accountancy firm, I think people will try and do marketing, but they're not marketing professionals, they're accountants. They don't know what. That's not their niche, that's not what they need. You know they know how to do so we've got someone in who knows what they're doing and she's doing a fantastic job of it. Um, and now, like, obviously we've got the business development side of things, so we've got a structure for that as well.

Sherelyn Cowles: 23:59

It's all about structure really, and I think in traditional firms you don't get so much structure. We, we don't want to come across as a big corporate. We want to still have that. You know we're your friendly accountants, you know we, we want to talk to you. We don't want to come across as we just wanted you to come in and you're just a number to us and we want that.

Sherelyn Cowles: 24:23

You know, relationship with our clients and having this structure in place and having those processes has allowed them time to be able for us to focus on those important things and you know, the client experience, which is really the most important thing at the moment.

Sherelyn Cowles: 24:39

I feel we've worked with the team and done the values and now we need to focus on the client experience. So part of our structure as well, we've just put three client portfolio managers in place. So something I didn't say is we introduced the pod system a while back as well, where we put all the teams they've now in pods, so there's specialists in each area within that pod. So we've now got client portfolio leads who oversee the pods, the clients in those pods, and they are there to make sure the client experience is a great one. So you know we're developing all the time and the structure allows us to develop and it allows us to open up new job roles where we can see there's a gap. So it's clear now where we can see gaps and where we need to fill them and who can fill those gaps as well.

Douglas Aitken: 25:34

Yeah, so in terms of the pods, sherlyn, roughly what kind of value is looked after? What value of clients is looked after? Is it roughly half a million or is it as much as that?

Sherelyn Cowles: 25:50

Yeah, it would be. How many pods have we got? I'm just trying to think what a question. Um, so we've got one, two, three. Yeah, it is roughly about half a, yeah, half a million per pod.

Douglas Aitken: 26:03

Okay, yeah and am I right in saying that you've got a people manager looking after the pod from from the people perspective, but you've also got this client manager. Are you frozen again? Oh, not from my side. I don't know what's going on. Can you hear me at all?

Sherelyn Cowles: 26:43

Oh, I can hear you Be back. Oh, there you go, just got you back.

Douglas Aitken: 26:46

Okay, that's weird.

Sherelyn Cowles: 26:50

It's you that's freezing on my side side, but you're telling me that I'm freezing well, you froze, and I've got some beeping noise in my ear now oh, it's gone yeah, you froze, and then it did the windy thing oh right okay anyway, we're back so yeah we were talking about the pod structure and I just asked you a nasty question about have you got a people manager and a client manager looking after the?

Douglas Aitken: 27:20

uh, sorry, let's start that again. So if I'm right, sherilyn, you've got a people manager looking after the the people in the pod and the client manager leading the client experience. Is that right?

Sherelyn Cowles: 27:34

That's right. Yeah, so we've got a pod leader who looks after the whole pod, does the one-to-ones, make sure they're all happy and they're well looked after. And then we've got the portfolio lead, who is there to look after the clients. That's right.

Douglas Aitken: 27:47

Great, okay, so you mentioned one-to-ones there. Is that a weekly thing?

Sherelyn Cowles: 27:53

Yep. So every week everyone has a quick one-to-one with their team leader. I mean, I say quick, you know if they've got other things they need to bring up, they're not rushed through, but we try and stick to just 10, 15 minutes with each person. And then, if there's any feedback to go up to elise at a higher level, um, it will do. When she does the one-to-ones with the team leaders, yeah, um, and then me and elise will have one-to-ones with sam um, and he has one-to-ones with Emma, our marketing lady, and Becky, our HR lady.

Douglas Aitken: 28:32

Great when that was introduced Sherilyn weekly one-to-ones that there might be again a lot of people listening thinking we don't have time to do stuff like that. What's the return on investment, the ROI, from spending 15 minutes a week with everybody that reports to you?

Sherelyn Cowles: 28:53

well, if you've got team who they know they can report in once a week and speak about anything they need, they're not then going back to the team gossiping saying things you know I don't feel listened to, because they are being listened to, um, so it gives them that opportunity to be listened to. So I think it's it prevents any time wasted by worrying about not being able to speak to someone or talking to someone else about it and then them talking to someone you know. It's like the domino effect.

Sherelyn Cowles: 29:30

So I think it's a massive, you know it. Might you might think yeah, so I think it's a massive, you know it. Might you might think I don't have the time, but you don't need to spend more than 10 minutes unless there's a major issue. And if there was a major issue, someone would come to you before their one to one. Anyway, they wouldn't wait to have a one-to-one with you. They'd come and see you before that point.

Douglas Aitken: 29:49

Yeah, what stats could you provide, sherilyn, that kind of reinforce the fact that team engagement has gone up and I'm not just saying it's because of weekly one-to-ones, but they've clearly played a part in it. So do you do any employee surveys, for example?

Sherelyn Cowles: 30:17

surveys, for example, um, we've done the gallup survey a couple of times um and we had quite a decent score on that actually compared when 51 was it.

Sherelyn Cowles: 30:22

I think I, yeah, I think so, yeah, and that's. And the second time we did it had gone up again, which is a real. You know it was great. You know, if it goes up, because it can only be positive and when we were showed it against other firms it was quite high compared to other firms, so we were really pleased with that. Um, and you're not going to have a decent score on that if you've not got happy staff or happy I should say staff. I'm not allowed say staff if you haven't got a happy team.

Douglas Aitken: 30:53

Yeah, exactly right. It is one of the highest Gallup scores that we've seen in all the firms that we work with, and to me it's no surprise. I love what you're doing on the people side, and weekly one-to-ones is part of it, but I want to go back to something you mentioned earlier, where you said about having a culture of encouraging people to do more of what they love. Why is that important?

Sherelyn Cowles: 31:20

because if you've got a employee who comes in and they don't love what they do, they're not engaged with what they're doing and they're not going to be their best and they're not going to do their best work, and then the client's not going to get the best out of you either. If you've got someone who loves what they do, you're going to get more efficiency, higher quality of work and it's just. You know you don't want to come in and see someone unhappy. It's. It's not very pleasant. You know I hate coming in the office.

Sherelyn Cowles: 31:50

If there's someone who's, you know, had a bad time at home and you can see it on their face and I'll go over and what's the matter.

Sherelyn Cowles: 31:57

You know you want to see people laughing and we've got a real, what I'd call jolly workplace. You can walk in and you'll hear people laughing and you'll hear and everyone gets on and everyone does loads of social stuff outside of work, not always as a big group, because there's obviously different personalities and everyone gets on so well, but obviously everyone has their different. You know some people like going out at the weekend socializing, some people like to stay in. So you know, but it's nice to see and hear that there's certain people within the team who will. They're actual friends, you know, and I think it's because they love coming to work and they love what they're doing. That just enables that and it just makes for a much happier work environment and it just means that the client's going to definitely get a better experience because they're getting a high level of work. Because that person, if they love their job, they're going to love what they're doing and they're going to love the clients they're working with.

Sherelyn Cowles: 32:57

So you know it's happy all round.

Douglas Aitken: 33:00

Please forgive this brief interruption to the podcast. You've just heard Sherlyn Cowles talking about the importance of employee engagement in your firm. If you go to the show notes, you'll find a business breakthrough on exactly that subject how to improve employee engagement in your firm. If you go to the show notes, you'll find a business breakthrough on exactly that subject how to improve employee engagement in your firm.

Douglas Aitken: 33:22

We've actually looked at it from the same angle actually looking at your firm's success and your firm's success is dependent on client loyalty, because they stay longer, they pay more and they recommend you to other people, and that client loyalty is ultimately determined by how well they're looked after by a team. And if you're not engaged, you're not going to be able to look after them, are you? Um, I think it's a? Well, you can't. You can put a face on, but not forever. So ultimately, if it comes over that you're loving what you're doing, that's going to come over to clients, and so on and so forth um give us an idea of the what, what size of the firm roughly in terms of turnover right now, sherlin.

Douglas Aitken: 34:02

So I'm thinking just again for a listener, thinking 11 years ago, sam set up from nothing and the firm is now?

Sherelyn Cowles: 34:08

at what roughly I think uh, 1.8 million.

Douglas Aitken: 34:13

Yeah, wow.

Sherelyn Cowles: 34:14

I think it is.

Douglas Aitken: 34:16

Yeah, amazing journey you've been on and then? So what's next in terms of the expansion of the firm? I think there's maybe rumours of a new office.

Sherelyn Cowles: 34:27

Yes, so Sam's been looking for quite some time to get bigger premises because we think that and the team I know the team would love to all be together in their pods but all together we still have a separate office in Warminster because that's already our building and that team they're just, they're a different breed, but they're they love it over there and so obviously that will stay um, but we're amalgamating the two offices into one um.

Sherelyn Cowles: 35:04

It gives us. We're basically so. We've bought a building and we're refurbishing it at the moment, to what we've listened to the team, we've asked them what they want in a new building and we were trying to accommodate most of those requests as best we can with the budget provided.

Sherelyn Cowles: 35:30

So Elise and Katie have been working really hard on that to get that going. So hopefully in the next few months we'll be in the new place and yeah, I can't wait. I mean, I haven't had a desk for ages. I sort of pop in and out where I can because we've outgrown where we are basically. So yeah, so we've, um, everyone's really, I think, quite excited by that um, and it's not far from westbury office anyway, where we're our head offices, um, and I think just describe for people what the the layout of the current building is, because you said about the team wanting to be together.

Sherelyn Cowles: 36:11

They kind of are at the moment, but you're split all over different floors yeah, so we're in a listed building, um, and we've got one team in one side and one team in the other, separated by a corridor, um, and then we've got our payroll team, who are in the basement, which isn't very pleasant for them, bless them. Um. So, um, it's kind of, if you want to go and talk to someone, you have to step away from your desk and, you know, go into another room, um, which is is fine, but it's not ideal, and I think it's a better vibe when you can see people you know. So, in the new building, it's open plan and you're going to be able to see everyone. Um, yeah, and there's going to be a desk for some of us who don't currently have desks. I cannot wait, because I've got all my stuff in boxes in a locked up office down in the basement, which has been there for months and months, and I just want somewhere to put my trays.

Sherelyn Cowles: 37:16

So that's on a personal level. But yeah, I just, I just think it's quite an exciting time really. There's not a lot of property around where we are that would be suitable, and we went to see this one and straight away we were like this will be great, so it's really exciting time yeah, and there's quite a few studies that back up this need for a team to be together.

Douglas Aitken: 37:38

Teams generally that are split over different floors don't have the same cohesion and engagement as teams that sit together. I think there's even a distance factor. It might be two or three metres. If you're within two or three meters of different people, engagement increases exponentially.

Douglas Aitken: 37:55

So yeah, that's an exciting journey, then, or an exciting chapter in the journey I want to talk about you a little bit, shirlene, in terms of your role. You you discovered after a period that you weren't doing something that you love. You had a chat with Sam about it, kind of by accident, but quickly got into a role. How is that enjoyment manifesting itself, compared to what you did before?

Sherelyn Cowles: 38:32

Yeah. So I kind of fell into the role I did before because of the work I was doing and it wasn't. I didn't enjoy the work. I enjoyed elements of it, but I didn't love it and I just and I was doing that role at the time I was doing some of our HR, I was doing our payroll and I was doing some business development and parts of my old role as well. So I was doing so much I wasn't doing anything particularly great because I had too much to do.

Sherelyn Cowles: 39:02

And then I started doing um networking and at first I was terrified. I think, oh my god, I've got to talk to people I don't know. Thinking, oh my god, I've got to talk to people I don't know, I've got a smile, um. But then I actually decided, actually I quite like this, I'm quite enjoying this and I'm quite enjoying getting to go out and meet people and because, um, I've built some really good relationships with clients and with suppliers, I then um got asked to do to speak at das in 2024 for one of our suppliers and I was absolutely bricking myself but I did it. And then I got asked again this year to do it for a different supplier. And I just think, because the role I'm in now and I'm getting to do stuff like that networking, going out to see clients I get a real buzz when someone comes on board, when I've gone out and I've talked to them, said what you need, um, you know, give them the package and they're really happy with it and and when they when I get that email to say they've signed up it, I just feel like a real sense of achievement and I love it, whereas before I don't think I was getting any sense of achievement out of anything. I was just doing processing, doing processing work. And that's not me. You know. I love. You know. You've met me lots of times. You know what I'm like. I love chatting to people, I love sort of just going out to places and experiencing new things, and my role now allows me to do that and, to you know, promote the firm whilst I'm doing it. And that's why I'm doing it to go out and promote the firm and get new business, and I love it.

Sherelyn Cowles: 40:49

I never thought that I would be in this kind of role. If you just said to me, I mean A. I never thought I I would be in this kind of role. If you just said to me. I mean a I never thought I'd be an accountant in the first place, but then b if you just said to me I'd be in sale, some sort of sales role, I'd have been like, absolutely not. I hate sales people, um. But yeah, so that's this. This role has allowed me to really love my job, you know, and I think it's the sense of achievement of after a day's work going. Do you know what I feel like I've done a really good day's work and I really love that yeah.

Sherelyn Cowles: 41:26

Yeah, and I think personally it's made me happier at work as well. Good, because there's been times I've been a bit of a miserable bugger and I'm not very good at hiding that.

Sherelyn Cowles: 41:38

So and uh, yeah, can you tell um, but yeah, I think it's, it's just it. Just when you're happy, you exude that to other people, and people pick up on that. And when you're a bit, you know, miserable or you're not happy with what you're doing, people pick on to that as well, and it makes them feel a little bit low. So, yeah, that's why you should always, I think, make sure your team are loving what they're doing, and if they're not, how can you help them to change that? Or what can you do to put in changes to make sure, because within such a big team, you're going to have people who love stuff that people hate, and vice versa.

Sherelyn Cowles: 42:20

So I just think it's really important to make sure that your team are happy in the roles they're in fab and an award came your way I understand yeah.

Sherelyn Cowles: 42:34

So I got um top 50 women in accounting, uh, the ignition one and again that was just like so that's opened up so many opportunities, you know, linked to my linkedin went mad after that. Um, and when I went to accountex this year, you know, I got invited to the Ignition Breakfast and got to meet people there and it's just, it's just so nice. And people mention it and I just think, oh, okay, I get a bit like oh, whatever, but yeah no it's nice.

Sherelyn Cowles: 43:08

It's nice to get the recognition. It is really. You know, it's not something.

Douglas Aitken: 43:12

I put it on my facebook and everyone was like, oh my god, I know I know you so well that I knew there was no way you were going to talk about this, so I had to ask you. Thanks, you're welcome. No, well deserved. Sure as well. So you've now reached A-list celebrity status and accountancy? Yes, not quite, yeah. So what does the future hold for Goodings? Do you think? What's Sam's plan over the next three, four, five years?

Sherelyn Cowles: 43:49

I think Sam's plan is just to grow the firm. Sam's plan is just to grow the firm um, probably looking to get to 5 million, 50 team. Um, ideally, I think, um, but just make sure we keep the values going, keep our purpose stays the same. You know, um Sam's, like I said before, his passion is to help people. He just wants to help everyone and, yeah, he's adopted that throughout the firm and pretty much, I say, everyone in the firm. They want to help people. So we need to make sure that as you grow bigger, you need to keep make sure that you're keeping those values and that everyone in the team is on board with that. So I think, yeah, yeah, just grow the business and make sure that we keep the great reputation that we've got and keep getting those clients in who really value us and who we can work with to make sure that they're getting as much out of us as they can.

Sherelyn Cowles: 44:52

Um to be where they want to be and to make sure that you know they're happy. Really that's the end of the day. We just want everyone to be happy yeah, you've mentioned values a few times.

Douglas Aitken: 45:05

Um, what difference did that actually make in the firm? So you went through a process of discovering what your. Well, in any firm, you know what your culture is, but in very few firms is it written down. So you went through a process of writing down the values and behaviours that you hold dear in Goodings. What difference did that actually make in the firm Sherlyn? Not just immediately, but over the years not just immediately, but over the years.

Sherelyn Cowles: 45:37

Well, it's given everyone. You know we've got them all on a mural on every single office wall that you can see slap bang in your face and it's. You know, it's brilliant elise did it and she's so brilliant with stuff like that but it just allows everyone to um, if someone's not sticking to a value, and the another team member can actually call them out on it and go, hang on a minute. You're not doing that. And the values came from the team, not from the management. We stayed out of it. We were like this is your firm, what do you want the values to be? So they all got together and they wrote them. So this is what they want the values to be. So they all got together and they wrote them. So this is what they wanted the values to be of the firm. And it is great Cause I hear people doing it you know you're not doing that and they go, yeah, and they kind of do it in a jokey way.

Sherelyn Cowles: 46:25

But it's better to do it in a jokey way, because you're still telling someone but you're not telling them off, because people don't like being told off. Um, but yeah, and I think it's just. I think it just allowed. Everyone knows where they are, everyone knows what they're aspiring to be, and everyone wants everyone to act in those same ways. So I think that's why everyone gets on so well in the firm, honestly, um, because they just it's got that nice vibe. It's the vibe.

Douglas Aitken: 46:55

Yeah, yeah, you know how do you use the values when you're recruiting. How do they show up in the recruitment process?

Sherelyn Cowles: 47:02

So, while we're recruiting, we obviously when we get people in for we've got them all over our website as well and when we get people in for interview, they see them and we talk to them about it and we talk to them about what sort of firm we are, um, and actually we attract people because of that as well, because they research us and they see it and they they're like this sounds like a great firm to work. I want to work for you. So they've already in that mindset when they come in for interview that they really want to work for us. So that, yeah, you know, that helps massively with recruitment um. So it's kind of a no-brainer on that school to get those values in and embed them within your firm.

Sherelyn Cowles: 47:46

Um. It also allows us to do, um what we call values bonuses. So if someone in the team thinks that someone's really gone above and beyond, they'll pick a value and they'll say, right, this person's done that and they'll bring it up to c level to request a bonus. Now, I'm not saying that they will get those bonuses, but a lot of people have had values bonuses because they've gone above and beyond and someone in the team has seen it and again, that's brilliant, and we also do uh, cheers for peers, we call it where we've got a box of treats, um, and we stole this from money, penny this idea um, so they've got a box of treats. They all got asked what they like. So there's chocolate, there's alcohol, there's gift vouchers in there. Um, no, sorry, there's not gift vouchers.

Sherelyn Cowles: 48:42

There's scratch cards, I think, in there because everyone said a bit of what they wanted, and if someone does something that you know someone's oh, you followed that value really well, or you really, you know, that's brilliant. They give them a cheers for peers. They write a little. They've got these postcards and they write on it and then they give them a gift, what they think they'd like, and they leave it on their desk or they hand it to them. And when we have a monthly team meeting, everyone gets together and we have got a sheet. Cassie and the admin team produces a sheet of everyone who's got one and their reasons so everyone can see it, which is just and it's just a bit of a. You know, it's a nice thing to be able to. You know, anyone in the team can give anyone else within the team a little gift just to say well done or we appreciate you the team a little gift just to say well done or we appreciate you.

Douglas Aitken: 49:39

Yeah, fab, brilliant, great to see that in and working so well in the firm. Um, sherilyn, I've really enjoyed our conversation uh, today and I'll love what you're doing on the people side. Um yeah as you know, it's my passion, uh, to see people doing what they love and creating a really strong culture in a firm, and it feels like you guys have done a brilliant job with that. So thank you for being so open today and all your answers, and I wish you every success in the future. Thanks for coming on the podcast.

Sherelyn Cowles: 50:11

No problem, Thanks Doug in the future.

Douglas Aitken: 50:19

Thanks for coming on the podcast, no problem, thanks, doug. You've just heard Sherilyn Cowles talking about the importance of getting a strong people culture and strong team engagement. Sherilyn it's no surprise is a graduate of the Accountants Growth Academy, where we teach how to do exactly that how to build a team-first environment, a strong people culture and differentiate yourself from every other accounting firm out there.

Paul Shrimpling: 50:44

You'll find more valuable discussions with the leaders of ambitious accounting firms at humanizethenumbersonline. You can also sign up to be notified each time a new podcast is made available.

Douglas Aitken: 51:02

You're about to hear a short excerpt of a conversation with Stuart Clark of Russell and Russell Business Advisors. If you want to hear more, go to humanizethenumbersonline or wherever you get your podcasts from do you know, I think I've got a really great team.

Speaker 4: 51:18

I think the culture is really good. I think the purpose and the values and stuff that we've built tie into all that. Attracting the right talent and retaining the right talent. Um, I'm sure you know, on any given day there's people got issues and stuff that we do the kind of weekly one-to-ones, and there's always something that's not quite right, but it gives us an opportunity to try and correct things and make things better for going forward. So, yeah, I think the team is probably the number one thing.