Paul Shrimpling: 0:05

Welcome to the Humanize the Numbers podcast series Leaders, managers and owners of ambitious accounting firms sharing insights, successes and issues that will challenge you and connect you and your firm to the ways and means of transforming your firm's results.

Dan Cockerton: 0:21

I think there's a lot of talent that isn't fully utilised in businesses generally. I have a small number of friends who they had been working for a business for absolutely years. They were doing that role, they were doing it well, but it's not until they've moved on to a more senior role or bigger role where they've been allowed to spread their wings and they've just absolutely flown and taken their new business to another level.

Dan Cockerton: 0:53

And I said to this guy my best friend actually I said you've done that previous role for eight or nine years. You didn't particularly like it. You like the business, you like the people, but isn't it mad like what you're doing now, where you're leading this global business to new highs and this older company had all this talent there. They had you sitting there on that desk doing that job and they had no idea because they never tried to.

Dan Cockerton: 1:15

They never put you in that position. So I do think there's a. I do think there's a. There's a lot of wasted talent out there. Because we keep people in their comfort zones, they do a good job for us. We don't want to rock the boat or anything, but actually if you give them whatever it is they need to progress or do better things, bigger things, maybe a bit of trust that the firm or the business could be rewarded for doing so, just like you say, sometimes people need that nudge to go and do that.

Paul Shrimpling: 1:50

What does someone who lives in the digital first space, someone who's set up the digital accountancy show, have to say about humanise the numbers? Well, on this podcast discussion with Dan, you're about to hear Dan unpack some very personal insights that have transformed his life, his approach to business and life, and also insights into how you, as a leader, manager of an accounting firm, can and should embrace change in this digital world. Let's go to that podcast discussion with Dan now. Change in this digital world.

Dan Cockerton: 2:25

Let's go to that podcast discussion with Dan now. Hi everyone, my name is Dan Cockerton. I'm the founder of the Digital Accountancy Show. We are an exhibition and conference for forward-thinking digital-first accounting firm owners. What led to me setting up the business and the event was working in my time at Xero. I could see the amount of transformation and change happening in the industry, not only from accountants using technology to become more automated and more efficient themselves, but also the way in which they were serving clients in terms of those service deliverables was changing and expanding. And I thought you know what, what? I think there's an opportunity here to educate the market on this evolution that's happening within the profession.

Dan Cockerton: 3:10

In year one we were 600 people. Going into our fifth year show, we're expecting around 5,000. So we're getting super growth. We're growing around 50% year on year. For anybody that's been, they'll know that it's an event like no other, especially within the accountancy market. It has a very different look and feel to it. Then, outside of work, I have two small boys, five and seven. They keep us busy on most weekends. They are full of energy from the morning they wake up to the second they go to bed, and I absolutely love it. I live in Buntingford, hertfordshire, just outside London, so yeah, just north of the M25.

Paul Shrimpling: 3:55

Brilliant. I just wondered if the lads have got sort of favourite things, favourite sports, dan, where are you taxing them to?

Dan Cockerton: 4:02

Yeah, well, they are football mad. So, seven-year-old Harry is playing for the local kids club now, so he plays for Buntingford Cougars every Saturday morning. And Oscar is actually really into golf. He's only five years old but loves going down the golf range every Saturday. So that's kind of a bit of a daddy and Oscar time.

Paul Shrimpling: 4:21

All right.

Dan Cockerton: 4:21

Yeah, he absolutely loves it. So he asks me to go, which is dream scenario for me, yeah, yeah, while it lasts, while it lasts. You were a golfer then as well, dan yeah, yeah, a little bit, not very well, but I do. I do love getting around and enjoying some of the fresh air and, yeah, yeah, hitting some bad golf shots so brilliant, brilliant.

Paul Shrimpling: 4:40

so media career, career in zero. Then you decide to launch a new show into the market Brave decision. We'll get into that in a minute, but given that you're about to, we're recording this just before Digital Accountancy Show 5 and people will be listening to it afterwards. So you've had essentially five deep years of running your own business in a, an event setting, plus your career at zero.

Dan Cockerton: 5:09

I'm wondering what the phrase humanize the numbers means to you yeah, I think, um, yeah, I think that's such a great question and this kind of is so relatable in an accounting firm owner's life.

Dan Cockerton: 5:24

I think for me, it's one person to another explaining what the numbers on this particular spreadsheet or software actually mean in a way that helps the other person understand the story, understand the insights, understand how they can be better and improve performance.

Dan Cockerton: 5:51

And doing it in a way that doesn't make the other person feel silly and that they can't ask silly questions or basic questions, just being open, that the person on the receiving end of the advice may not be a numbers person whatsoever, but delivering it in a way that is beneficial, that can help the person opposite the table be better. And I'm not just talking. Obviously we're here today to talk about the accounting and finances side of things, but in sport, data is very, very relevant and there's, you know, most professional sports teams now are using data and we've got to talk at the show actually this year where we've got some sports panelists coming in to talk about how data and strategy can improve peak performance and um, so, yeah, that's kind of the humanizing the numbers part is is making the other person sitting opposite you feel comfortable and able to ask any questions, whether silly or not yeah, yeah, that's um.

Paul Shrimpling: 6:49

There's a lot in there, dan, and it's not often have we heard people say on a podcast, actually ask a question in such a way or share the information, the data, the numbers in such a way that the person on the receiving end doesn't feel silly, doesn't feel as though they're being demeaned in any way. I think Is that where you're going with that.

Dan Cockerton: 7:12

Yeah, yeah, completely. I've been on the receiving end of it, where you don't feel like you can ask questions because you feel like you should know it, um, because of the way it was delivered to you and the way it landed with me as the recipient. So yeah I felt like I couldn't ask what I thought were probably very basic questions, because the tone in which was coming back made me feel like I should know it yeah, the tone, I just tone of voice yeah, it is a tone of voice thing, isn't it?

Paul Shrimpling: 7:42

I'm just wondering how that's. Is that a a skill thing, do you think, or a sort of a something in built character trait? Think, where would you sit on that?

Dan Cockerton: 7:53

yeah, I think it's, um, I think it's something that people probably don't think about. It's it's obviously a soft skill and it's something that whether whether good or bad will just be natural to people, and that's the way in which they deliver the information. That's just what comes natural to them.

Paul Shrimpling: 8:11

Yeah.

Dan Cockerton: 8:11

But I think, from an advisor point of view, where you're trying to tell the story around the numbers, you're trying to give the client or the person receiving the end of it some information that can help them be better. The way they're going to be able to improve and get better is by asking questions back, and if you're delivering the information in a way where the tone of voice is you should know this, don't be so stupid or don't be so silly, yeah, it then stops you, as the person receiving the information, to asking any more questions yeah, yeah, yeah so you could?

Paul Shrimpling: 8:39

yeah, and it's. It's likely, isn't it, that the intention is not to be demeaning, is not to make the person silly, but by accident, that's what happens, just because we've not been um, careful enough in the tone of the question or the words of the question, because there's, you know, there's the words themselves can actually, um, um, come across in the wrong way, but the actual tone of delivery, similarly, can come across in the wrong way.

Dan Cockerton: 9:09

Yeah, if I just quickly try and use an analogy before we kind of set up this podcast today and if I had asked you, paul, where's the audio settings, and you had replied Dan, come on, they're just below the screen. It's obvious, or that sort of tone. It's the way you deliver it. I then won't want to ask any more questions because I feel to improve the podcast, because I might get a. I wasn't comfortable with the way in which you answered the question, so I think it's a really sorry to interrupt. I think it's actually a really now we're talking about. I think it's a really interesting skill and something to be aware of when you're delivering advice, information around the numbers.

Paul Shrimpling: 9:51

Yeah, I have some fun around these different styles of questions when I'm working with the leadership groups and management groups. I was with a leadership team of 60 odd last week and we were working on how do we build client loyalty and, cutting a long story short, I just challenged everybody about the why question with their team, so not necessarily customers, but with team, because when you ask a team member, so why have you done it in that way, which is quite a provocative question anyway, and it's suggesting that you should have known better question anyway, and it's suggesting that you should have known better. So the why. So again, I use the story of and if anyone's seen me from stage and I've shared this before that it'll be familiar. But I was talking about, uh, kate and I wedding anniversary.

Paul Shrimpling: 10:35

Kate's coming down the stairs ready to go out for a, a very nice meal at a very nice restaurant, and I asked kate, why is she wearing that dress? And that's just. You saw kate turns around, goes back upstairs. We don't go out that evening, understandably, because what a clumsy asked question is that? Um, and I'd almost challenge it. Doesn't matter what tone I use with that question, it's not, it's going to backfire.

Paul Shrimpling: 11:00

Um, so there are specific words, there are specific questions that can undermine a situation, and there's the tone of voice, which also can undermine the situation, because I could have gone. You know why are you wearing that dress? You know I've just elevated it, because I've just changed and elevated the tone. So I think it's, I think, a highly important, relevant piece. I think highly important, relevant piece. And if I was to just wondering what we can share between us, that anyone listening to this go, I wonder if I, because sometimes you don't know you're doing it. So I'm just wondering what have you learned, dan, in your career, as you know, in that commercial end of zero and obviously running your own business now on the Digital Accountancy Show, what have you learned that enables you to avoid that tripping over your laces in that tonal space around asking or presenting information in a way that doesn't feel right?

Dan Cockerton: 11:56

yeah, in terms of um, delivering information to people, one of the first things that I I always try and speak really softly and one of the first things I say is I know this, you hear this a lot and I'm probably not kind of um, uh, this isn't kind of anything transformational, but it's just letting the person know in advance. You can ask me anything. I've been in your shoes, I've been on the receiving end of information where I didn't feel like I could ask questions. But we're both going to benefit from this way more, if nothing is off the table and we can talk openly about everything and anything, and that includes asking all the questions that you want and and please feel free, be completely comfortable that no question is a silly question and it doesn't matter how basic it gets.

Dan Cockerton: 12:50

If we need to run over things a couple of times, that's absolutely fine. And just setting that, just framing that right at the start.

Dan Cockerton: 12:56

I think is really, really helpful when it comes to, like profit and loss and balance sheets and financial metrics. Something that I really try to be on top of myself in recent years is falling in love with those documents, like really trying to fall in love with the numbers, and I think, from an advisor point of view, one of the things that we can really help clients with is falling in love with the numbers, falling in love with the data, falling in love with the pnl, because I forget, I don't know what the stat is now for small businesses failing and and I my having known a number of small business owners my wife being one, my best friend being one and other people that I know one common theme seems to be people are not on top of the numbers enough. Yeah, they're not looking at their profit or loss on a monthly basis. They're just doing the things they want to do to create a great business and enjoy doing the creative side or the building side or delivering a great experience side.

Dan Cockerton: 14:02

But actually the purpose of a business is, as we know, um, helping improve the life of the business owner, and but to do that you've got to be on top of the numbers so I don't know how I went down that route, but it just popped into my mind and something I just think is so important from a from an advisor to client point of view, is getting your client to fall in love with the pnl, with the monthly numbers, and educating them around it as well.

Paul Shrimpling: 14:27

Um yeah, yeah, I think that's. I mean two things in there. One's the um frame every discussion giving your client or your team member if you're in, you know if you're having a conversation with a team member, given that we're in the client space is essentially frame up the discussion. Give permission to your client to ask anything they want to ask, create a safe spot. I think what you're trying to do there, dan, is create a safe space. You know, give them a voice, allow them the space for that voice to feel safe so that actually there isn't a dumbass question to be asked here, there's just ask. Absolutely, I love that, I love that and then actually maybe, just maybe, you stand the chance of helping them fall in over the numbers absolutely yeah, because if you don't they won't, because there'll be a fear of it all the time.

Paul Shrimpling: 15:12

And there is that. It's interesting. You've reminded me of um. Just, I was speaking to one of my old colleagues, uh, from 20 plus years ago and we used to run together um, a joint venture with uh, durham business school. So it was I was at avn at the time so there was accountants, leaders of accounting firms, going up to durham business school essentially a jv joint venture and in the mornings they'd educate them in the theory of good business leadership management and in the afternoon we'd create workshop processes so that they get it. That was practical um and one year. We did well, not, it wasn't one year once a year for three years on the bench with different groups.

Paul Shrimpling: 15:51

We pulled the business school was running a similar program and we joined them up for um just a morning and we got the accountants to unpack what they loved about working with business owners and what they didn't, what they hated. And we got the business owners to unpack what they loved about working with accountants and what they didn't, what they hated. And the business owners systematically, year in, year out, came back is please just help us understand the numbers. You know it's just fairly basic, but not from a business owner perspective. Please just help us understand the numbers. It's just fairly basic, but not from a business owner perspective. So, yeah, I love that. If we get the framing right, maybe we stand a chance of helping them fall in love with the numbers. I think that's very, very, very powerful.

Paul Shrimpling: 16:38

And if I chip my two pennies within and the regulars on the podcast I've heard me say this before we talk about the three c's and it's the. The attitude you bring to every conversation with every client is the three c's do you care enough, are you committed to help enough? And are you curious enough? And and that's that's like a positioning piece from in the inside, and it comes from a guy called Ed Gashin and, uh, a brilliant, brilliant book called Humble Consulting. I'll put it in the inside. And it comes from a guy called ed gashin and, uh, a brilliant, brilliant book called humble consulting. I'll put it in the show notes for everybody when they're um, if they want to go look for that it's.

Paul Shrimpling: 17:12

I think it's a p. It's one thing to build skill, but it's the build. How do you attitudinally frame this up for you inside? Well, if I care enough, I'm committed to help enough and I'm curious enough, I'm probably going to be in the right space in order to be humble enough to frame it up in such a way that we can encourage them to ask the right questions, or dumbass questions as well. Um, very powerful um. Thank you, dan, love that. So, if I can, I just you talked about in your introduction about, um, the evolution of the technology and the profession and you wanting to fill that space with a digital accountancy show. Um, just wondering, does it not feel more like revolution than evolution now, than compared with when you started five years ago, six years ago?

Dan Cockerton: 18:04

yeah, a little bit, especially with the, the amount of ai and all the new tools and apps and and things uh coming to market. Now it seems a bit uh, a bit uh like it's here to take over, or certain people are certainly saying that um from uh. No, we certainly see it much as an evolution, with everything going on. And if we we think back on 10, 15 years, the world in accounting was such a different place to where it is now. And in my zero days I was looking after accountants and they were turning around to me saying it's never been more exciting to be able to work with clients on this sort of basis where we can kind of plug into the numbers live, see what's going on, be able to give advice, and all that sort of basis where we can kind of plug into the numbers live, see what's going on, be able to give advice and all that sort of stuff, and it's just a really exciting time to be a part of it.

Dan Cockerton: 18:53

And what we're trying to do as a business is we're trying to play a supporting role in that evolution that's happening from people that are still perhaps working retrospectively and looking back at data and receiving information that's well out of date and fixing it and turning it into a set of accounts versus the generation that are coming through today, and supporting clients in ways not only from an accounting and compliance perspective, but all the ways in which they're serving them today, like advisory, forecasting, forecasting, funding, technology, advice. The scope of services that accountants seem to be offering now is getting wider and wider and wider and we want to play yeah, like I say, we want to play a role in, in supporting, supporting the profession from that perspective, like I say we want to play a role in supporting the profession from that perspective.

Paul Shrimpling: 19:48

So there's that. You've hit a hot button for me, which is that you can have a conversation with a client can't you? About the history lesson around your accounts and your tax, or you can have a forward-facing conversation about the future of the business, the future of their personal wealth, future of you know where they want to take their business, and so on, which is a conversation that the profession has been having, or the profession has been having that conversation for decades. And yet, when I go into the many firms that we work with in that advisory role, there's still yet to really not everyone, dan, but you know the vast majority of firms are still not in that space where they've advanced out of compliance. Don't get compliance. Always there, never it's not going anywhere.

Paul Shrimpling: 20:32

Okay, the technology is going to get involved more and more and more, particularly with the ai piece, um, but is it still not a lot of talk around? We're moving the profession into let's have grown up forward facing conversations to help the clients make better decisions about their future that aren't anchored to compliance. Are you seeing something? I'm not.

Dan Cockerton: 20:55

I hope you are show we attract what we would call kind of digital first firm and accounting firm owners where they've made a decision to invest in tech and the time into it as well, to become more automated and more efficient and that sort of thing, with a view of supporting clients in different ways. And maybe it's the bubble that I'm in, but we see accounting firm owners now delivering advice around technology apps, lots of things outside of compliance it might be R&D services, that sort of stuff. So we're definitely seeing an uptrend. I don't have any kind of hardcore data or stats around what percentage of firms have made a real kind of make it focus for them, but we're definitely seeing more of it. I would say like more of an intent, I would say, to deliver these, whether it be one-off pieces of work or ongoing advisory support to clients for sure.

Paul Shrimpling: 22:09

Right. So the intention is there. Yeah, question mark because we haven't got the stats as to whether that's actually turning into the fact that we've got 20% 50% of our client bank are actually receiving forward-facing guidance, advice in and around, whether it be advisory for business, advisory, funding, technology, tax, whatever. Uh, I mean don't get me wrong we work with a couple of tax specialists so we see that that's their space. You know that it is very much about not just what's happened and what's going forward. Um, it was a couple of firms who are very much in that. You know they've got a very high average fee because they're having regular conversations throughout the year about the future of the client's business. As opposed to in inverted commas, forgive this phrase just compliance. There's profound value in compliance in terms of reassurance and so on Legal requirements, clearly too, and therefore there's value in there.

Paul Shrimpling: 23:05

Yeah, it's interesting that you say I'm potentially in a bubble because these are digital-first firms. So maybe, but what's neat, anyone listening to this is going to go well if they're not in that space in terms of adopting, embracing the technology. That's where the future lies anyway. So they better, if they're not already, get their act together on that. Yeah, very good, adopting, embracing the technology. Um, that's where the future lies anyway, so the better if they're not already get right together on that. Um, yeah, very good. Um, so, uh, forgive the challenge here, dad. So digital first. Um, so you're coming from a digital first space and I'm coming from a human first space? Um, I think they're probably two hips joined where they should be joined, if you will Just wondering, is it really digital first? Or, given the nature of the relational agreement, contract expectations of clients is about the relationship, isn't it? It's not necessarily they're expecting the technology. Maybe they are, but I just what are your thoughts on? Is it digital first or is it human first?

Dan Cockerton: 24:10

Oh no, it's always got to be human first. Yeah, absolutely, like you have to. Clients, businesses buy from people. It's a human to well. I was about to say it's a human to human world, but I think that's about to change. No, it's about to say it's a human to human world, but I think that's about to change. No, it's got to be human first, right, like you know, one of the core values when I was working for Xero was human. You know all these kind of human decisions that we're making. It's always got to be human. It's got to be about the client relationship and building that relationship in a way like we've just talked about already, where clients can ask questions because ultimately we are successful if our clients are successful, and it has to be about the human first. So if you ask me to pick one of the two, I'd say human first over digital first.

Dan Cockerton: 25:00

Maybe digital first has a yeah just sounds quite cool from a marketing perspective or something, but I would say that if you were to ask 100 accounting firms who come to our show, human first or digital first they would absolutely say human first, technology second. And that's just not with clients, that's with the team as well, and internal people and systems and that sort of thing. So yeah, human first yeah, brilliant.

Paul Shrimpling: 25:30

Um that, by the way, what sorry to interrupt.

Dan Cockerton: 25:34

No, go on what the tech what the technology inevitably allows us to do is deliver more human to human interaction. If we are saving time for our people we've heard this a million times then we can be spending more time with our, with our clients, helping them be more successful, more interesting work for the team member um and ultimately, more revenue for the for the business owner yeah I just yeah, it's capable of doing that, isn't it?

Paul Shrimpling: 26:05

The adoption of the technology? So it frees people's time up, your people's time up, so that they can invest more in the relationship with the client. That potential is there, and the potential to just in more of the same, as opposed to more of the. Let's work better with our existing clients to build a stronger, deeper, longer lasting relationship so that we help them better and therefore earn the right to a keep them a keep them paying and b recommend sorry, c recommending us. Um, there's, you know, we can create the space, but we can use it to do more of the same, or we can create the space to do more of the higher value, more impactful, more meaningful stuff that maybe the modern-day accountant is looking for.

Dan Cockerton: 26:52

Can I tell you one of the things that I've been thinking about recently. Paul and I haven't got the answer to this, but I was at an event recently and it was around AI and automation and becoming more efficient and that sort of stuff, and the kind of overriding message was it's going to free us up to do spend more time with clients and this sort of stuff and have more meetings and have just more contact with clients and be more people-facing. But not everybody wants to do that and not everybody can do that. So, again, like I said, I haven't got any kind of real insightful observations to this, but I'm thinking like what, what, what will those people do who don't want the people facing and don't want to do that type of work? What are those guys? What are those people going to do? So yeah, that's not not for any answers right now, but just something I'm thinking about and I think it's a powerful question and one that you're not the only person asking, I think.

Paul Shrimpling: 27:48

I think that you know people who are in that well, I love this technical work. I don't want that relationship work piece.

Dan Cockerton: 27:54

They'll be challenged by that you know, we all have different profiles. We all have different personality types. Some of us are, you know, more outgoing and more emotional and get our energy from people, but the opposite to that. There are people that get their energy from being on their own or digging down into a bit of technical data or problem solving. Not everybody gets their energy in the same way and interest of work the same way. So, yeah, it's just interesting to see how it's all going to pan out. Yeah, I agree, same way. So, yeah, it's just interesting to see how it's all gonna all gonna pan out.

Paul Shrimpling: 28:24

Yeah, I agree, and I think, just picking up on one word that you used in imposing the question, uh, because, uh, you use the word, can you know what? Some people can do this and some people can't. Well, hang on a second um, people, some people can drive and some people can't drive a car, and yet they can build the skill to drive a car. Now, some people really enjoy driving a car and some people really aren't that bothered and would much prefer to hand the keys to someone else to drive, because I can read a book rather than drive. I'm not forced, um, so there can be. I think the skills can be learned. Everybody can learn the skills.

Paul Shrimpling: 29:04

Whether everyone would fall in love with the driving skill or the building a relationship skill, I think that's a different question, and so it's I can learn. I can't learn the piano. I am not learning the piano, um, but I can, and I think that's that that's important here. Um, yeah, the challenge is, some people, I think, make the decision that they don't like it before they've learned to do it. Yes, and you've got two. You've got, uh, your two lads, and you know, oscar and harry, you will be encouraging them to um go swimming, you might fall in love with it. To you know, play rugby because you might fall in love with it. To play the saxophone, or you know, go to chess club, or because you might fall in love with it. And typically we turn into um successful career people if we're doing something that we really love doing, but we don't know whether we're going to love it or not until we've been exposed enough to the, to the new skill you're absolutely right.

Dan Cockerton: 30:07

You're absolutely right and often, as we know, with learning anything, you have to go through certain phases of learning failing, being uncomfortable, being a bit rubbish at it and then it's the people that can push through that, that actually may learn to like it and deliver it and do it in a good way. But it's what I've learned with learning anything new. You've got to go through that period of not being very good, which is just part of the process, so don't beat yourself up too much indeed and there's a brilliant study, dan um, from a quite a lumpy research study in the us schools, and I don't think it's any different here.

Paul Shrimpling: 30:44

Uh, and it was if we can show the children how their brain works when it comes to making mistakes, because it's only through making mistakes that you really learn in a deep way. So all musicians learning a new piece of music will make a whole raft of errors before they master that piece of music. Um, and it's uh, understanding the science of the brain facilitates this. Ah right, yes, oh, so it's the point. So there was a a series of schools that um, um, for forced sounds a bit deliberate.

Paul Shrimpling: 31:20

But you know, put the kids into two groups. One group was educated on how the brain works and the fact that mistakes are healthy, because it helps you learn at the edge of your knowledge, and the other group didn't, and they didn't tell the teachers which kids were in which group. But the kids who'd learned how the brain worked actually accelerated way beyond the ones that didn't. It's like, wow, yeah, I can imagine, just because we've changed their attitude to actually oh, I'm not going to ask a question, I might be silly, you know your point earlier. And all of a sudden, we've got children putting their hands up in the air, wanting to ask the teacher questions, because they get the fact that it's okay to make a mistake and they've created a safe space, or because they were educated about the way the brain works. I think that's just amazing.

Dan Cockerton: 32:02

Yeah, I think there's four phases of learning. I believe the first one is you're unconsciously incompetent.

Speaker 3: 32:10

So you don't know what you're doing, you're doing it wrong, but you don't know, so you don't really care.

Dan Cockerton: 32:15

Then you're consciously incompetent, so you know what you should be doing, but you can't do it. And then you go move into consciously competent, be like when you're focusing so hard, when you're learning to drive or tying a shoelace, you can do it, but you've really got to focus on it and you're trying to kind of work it out step by step, many steps at a time. And then you go through unconsciously competent, where you're doing it and you're not even thinking about it.

Dan Cockerton: 32:40

So I think as a leader and as a manager, it's really important to understand those steps because if you're teaching somebody how to deliver advice to a client or management accounts on a monthly basis or via a loom call, whatever it might be that you've got to go through those four steps and it takes time, so it takes time. So it takes takes time.

Paul Shrimpling: 32:56

takes others longer than others, but um yeah, yeah, it takes time, it takes repetition. I think there's understanding. Yes, yes, there is an investment in time, because I always use the phrase like, like tomatoes, you can't rush growing a tomato, you can't rush growing the human brain, you know, and, or human skill, there's a time, but there's time and repetition and it's how you, how you manage the repetition. If and if there's more mistakes in the repetition, you learn it faster. So the sign says um, uh, partly because um, there's uh. It's probably worth sharing this and we'll we'll put I'll put a um a business breakthrough in the show notes that references this in the tools I around in the brain.

Paul Shrimpling: 33:36

Everyone's familiar with the brain synapse, which looks a bit like your hand, and then there's the neurons running off and connecting with other synapses. So the brain's really complicated because it's a multi, multifaceted network. Um, but also, what they've discovered through scans is in the brain, where there's these things called super highways, where there's a really strong and powerful neuron, essentially a wire, which is thicker and broader than the rest. The actual neuron size is exactly the same as the others. It's just got more insulation on it and what they've discovered is the insulation happens every time you do something, every time you repeat something you get another insulated wrap go around that particular neuron which increases the speed from I've probably got my maths wrong here and it shows up in the business breakthrough from something like uh, one meter per second, which is fast. The brain signal up to 300 meters per second when it's got in excess of 30 or 40 mile in wraps on, and that's why we get into that. You know that unconsciously incompetent space, a superhighway neurons that have the repetition, has built the what people call muscle memory.

Paul Shrimpling: 34:47

But the neuroscientists don't necessarily subscribe to that. They subscribe to the fact that you've got these superhighways in your brain that are carrying the signal. So you can imagine, for example, it's not a good example just because he's not been winning um formula ones, but lewis hamilton has got super highways in his brain for driving a car very fast, as has every f1 driver and every uh anyone who's raced around a circuit. I guess some better than others. Um, but it's right. There are those four stages Just being aware of that for yourself and being aware of that to help your client, or being aware of that to help your team member. Big insight, really big insight.

Dan Cockerton: 35:26

It can also help, paul, with just your own thought patterns and thinking. We all get into habits in the way we think and whether we're talking to ourselves in a positive way or a negative way, whether we're even thinking about our own thoughts, and I made a conscious decision in 2017 to talk to myself on a more positive basis, which has led to certain things happening in my life and then led to me kind of setting up and doing what I'm doing today, but it's habit. It's habit and you can change. Not only are we talking about kind of in the physical real world, with these kind of brain waves and um, doing things kind of, uh, unconsciously competent, but also the way you think as well, which can have a massive impact on your life.

Paul Shrimpling: 36:13

Well, let me if I can open that up. So what was it in 2017 that prompted you to go? And I need to think in a different way, because it's see, there's a, if we're going to install new habits that become stronger than the old habits. Because there's a phrase, uh, familiar to um, lots of people who've been in my events, but I use this uh finish the following sentence Stan, old habits, what old habits die hard, okay, and so, like John McClane in the die hard movies, actually really old habits never die because they're wrapped with so much myelin they don't degrade like other neurons degrade.

Paul Shrimpling: 36:50

So it's like you know, once you've learned to ride a bike, you can always learn to ride a bike. You can always learn to ride a bike. You can always get on a bike and ride the bike. That's um, so that's a death. That's that's why old habits actually never die. Um, you go, okay, so we've got to install the new habits, so we need more repetition to build that myelin up so that you perform. But you've got to want to do that, you've got to make a decision to do that and then set everything up so that it supports that. So I'm wondering what was it in 2017 that prompted you to go. I need to improve my thinking habits if I'm going to, so I'm just curious what? What was going on there?

Dan Cockerton: 37:26

yeah, so. So I I never really thought much about the way that I think and the impact it can have on my life in this kind of 3D world that we're in. And then, you know, I was just kind of like thinking and just not really thinking too much about my own thoughts. And then I read a book which I'd seen a number of people online talk about, and people listening to this may have read it or may not have read it, and people listening to this may have read it or may not have read it, but I recommend it to every single person I meet in the street and family. And you may have read it, paul, or you might not have done, but that was it's called the Secret by Rhonda Byrne.

Dan Cockerton: 38:09

Yeah, and it was actually. I think it was Colin McGregor, the UFC fighter, was talking about it, as well as some other people online, and it just made me think I need to start thinking like this. I need to understand my thoughts, and it's basically, for anyone who doesn't know, it's a book all about the law of attraction and what you think is what you attract into your life, both good and bad, and it was ever since I read that book that it just made me more aware of the way I think and the impact it has on my day-to-day life, and I just made a conscious decision after reading that book I'm going to think in a certain way and we're going to see where it takes me.

Speaker 3: 38:48

Let's just use it as an experiment if nothing else.

Dan Cockerton: 38:53

And yeah, it changed my life, completely changed my life, and just finding just finding kind of internal peace, internal contentment, reframing different things in different ways and yeah, it just it's. I think it's an amazing book and it's an amazing thing to understand it's yeah, thank you for sharing.

Paul Shrimpling: 39:12

We'll put the uh. We'll put the book link in the in the show notes as well. Uh, I was talking last week to this leadership team about uh, we've got this hardware physical hardware and then we've got this mental hardware, and then it's what's the programming? Well, the programming of the way, it's the way you talk to yourself which ultimately determines what decisions you make and what actions you follow through on, and so the think, decide, act. You know, equation is. I think that's what you're referencing here, isn't it?

Dan Cockerton: 39:39

And it's a choice, paul. You can talk to yourself any way that you want in your mind. You can transform your life, you can become a new person. It's all a choice. You can say to yourself whatever you like. And coming back to the decision-making thing and just thought, something quite quite heard over the weekend which I absolutely loved was you can't control your first thought, but you can control your second. So, for example, car goes flying past you on the motorway and your initial thought is you effing this and effing that.

Paul Shrimpling: 40:14

But then the second thought yeah.

Dan Cockerton: 40:18

The second thought might be and this is comes back to the reframing thing um, hold on, that guy might be on his way to the hospital to go and see his dying mum. So you can always control. You can't control your first thought you're on the treadmill, you've done 35 minutes, you're absolutely blowing. Your first thought is I need to get off this, I'm finished. Your second thought is you can push, you can control, do another five minutes, push through. And that's where I think people who really progress and are successful understand the power of their own thoughts and their own thinking there's a, there's a big part of.

Paul Shrimpling: 40:56

So, yes, those choices are possible, which requires a high degree of responsibility, you know, accepting that I am able to respond, as opposed to I'm just going to trigger automatically and behave in a particular way, maybe the way I've historically always behaved. Um, it's, it's hard that responsibility.

Dan Cockerton: 41:18

Piece, though, dan, in it yeah, oh yeah, yeah, it is, um, it's uh, it's certainly very interesting and, um, yeah, something I'd like to learn more about. I mean talking about the brain. I mean, when I get some free time, I just we've got these things inside our skulls and our bodies. We have no idea what they're fully capable of. Yeah, I don't think anyone does.

Paul Shrimpling: 41:44

Yeah, brilliant, so let's just change. Change that slightly. Yeah, that's gone. Um, yeah, off piece. Sorry about that. Yes, off piece, but deep and as human as it gets, are we capable of making a choice in the moment that ensures that we make a better decision rather than a worse or bad decision? Take good action as opposed to other action, and I think, is that not anchored to actually? You've got goals that you want to achieve and one way of thinking supports it and one actually undermines it. Do you think? How important do you think goals personal goals, business goals, for that matter for whether it be a team or your clients actually play a role here oh yeah, massive, massive, absolutely massive.

Dan Cockerton: 42:32

I mean goals. Goals from a business, business point of view, goals from a personal development point of view and dreams from an ambition what you want to achieve in life. And knowing what you want, you know, that kind of my goals get me out of bed in the morning and my goals are not kind of like Dan Cockerton goals. These are goals and things that I can, how I can impact the world. You know, I feel like as human beings, we all think about what we want to get out of life and how we can help ourselves and help our families. But I believe one of the biggest gifts of being a human is how you can help other people and help the world, and my fear is that people don't have big enough goals to motivate themselves to help other people.

Dan Cockerton: 43:30

Um, I don't mind sharing this with you. I hadn't planned on saying this, but one of the things that I want to do in my life. So Oscar, my five-year-old he has a. He has a disease called Usher's disease, so he was born deaf and when he starts to hit his teenage years, he's going to begin to lose his sight as well. And, um, sorry, I'm going well off piece again.

Paul Shrimpling: 43:53

Yeah, go for it, mate, go for it. No, no, don't apologise.

Dan Cockerton: 43:58

And we well off piece to get you, go for it, go for it. No, no, don't apologize. And we had a meeting with more fields eye hospital to talk about the eye condition which is something called retinus pigmentosa. This was kind of last summer. We've got another appointment coming up and we were just talking about the funding side of things. They were, they were running trials to try and cure retinus pigmentosa and the funding had just been cut for it and we just met two teenage boys who were just coming in. They had the same condition as my, oscar, and they were coming to their teenage years. They were beginning to lose their sight and they were on these trials and we were just talking to them at reception. We had the meeting with the doctor. The trial's been cut because of the funding's been cut, and we just got talking about funding and I said, like what, like what you know what's a meaningful donation for you guys? Like to get things going again? And I wasn't talking about me kind of doing anything here. I was just interested to know what sort of levels of money are involved in, yeah, yeah, yeah, um, running trials and um, she said something like you know, we love the fundraisers, we appreciate the 40, 50 000 pounds and stuff, but for us to do anything meaningful it needs to be kind of half million and above, you know by the time, salaries and that sort of stuff. And then I kind of left home and then a few weeks later just started thinking about ways we could raise money and all that sort of thing. And then and then I just thought one day like I was watching a video online and this guy was saying you know, work out what your whys are, that will help motivate you. Go home, write your list of whys. And then the next one was why not you? And that just kind of like that just kind of sat with me why not? Why can't it be you? Why can't you go and make the money to go and or raise the money to go and cure the trials? That's gonna, you know. So my, my personal goals are to play a major role in helping more fields eye hospital, cure this disease, usher's disease because obviously I've got my five-year-old son who's got the condition, but why can't it be us? So that's my goal, my kind of life goal is to really play a big role in that. But I absolutely agree.

Dan Cockerton: 45:47

Coming back to your point on. Do we need goals to help us think this way and make these decisions? Absolutely, I mean, it's crazy for me. I've, as a business owner, I've only been goal setting for the last two years, just never done it. Just life gets in the way kids, family, work just never done it. And then so last year, 2024, was actually the first time I'd actually written a set of goals and gone back to at the end of the year, and not just at the end of the year, but throughout the year as well, and it really makes a difference, paul. There's something magical about writing down these ideas in your mind, or goals in your mind, putting it on a piece of paper and things start to happen, and it's a really powerful thing to do. So, yeah, I mean, if I was ever a leadership coach or anything like that, which I probably won't be, but everybody I'd recommend to goal set 100%.

Paul Shrimpling: 46:41

Yeah, so, on a personal basis and on a business basis, by the sounds of it, yeah, like you, I've read a lot, lots of books in the library here. Uh, library sounds a bit pompous. I haven't got a wing with books in it, I haven't. There's just, you know, a couple of rooms, um, lots of lots of books, um, uh, and for me, you have the secret.

Paul Shrimpling: 47:09

Mine was, uh, stephen covey's seven habits of highly effective people, and, um, and and. Habit one is be response able, which is your, make a choice, choose how you want to behave, choose what you want, choose what you want to do, choose how you want to be. And in there is, um, uh, interesting that this has come up again, dan, you know, sometimes I don't know how you find this certain things or patterns show up, uh, so this is like the third time I'm having this conversation in the last working week, which is there are three types of goals. This is what I want to have, this is what I want to do, and this is what I want to be, or rather who I want to be. So, who do you want to be? Well, you, like me, I just want to be a great dad. You know, I want to be a great husband, want to be a great son and a great brother and a great friend and actually make a difference in the business community to help ambitious accounts humanize the numbers.

Paul Shrimpling: 48:01

As it happens, just because of my personal life setting a business up with my dad and all that it's very personal, like you know your conversation around ushers disease and your son it's very personal, um, but ultimately it's not so much about what I want to have, it's about know what I want to do and what difference do I want to? It's I think that's profound around what you shared there for Moorfields Eye Hospital, which is interesting because Kate's dad's blind in one eye because of an eye deformer and my mum's blind in one eye and it stopped them both driving and it's you know something. Know something again, like lots of things in life I guess we take for granted, isn't it, unless it's, uh, threatened, um yeah, amazing exactly amazing.

Paul Shrimpling: 48:43

So, yes, goal setting, make them personal. Uh, have do be um. So back to humanize the numbers. Not that we've ever dropped out of it, by the way, because this is as human a conversation as it gets. Uh, how do we better humanize the numbers for our team? So we're getting out the client space, dan, and dropping into the team space. What have? What have you seen that works for you? What have you seen that works for businesses called accountancy businesses?

Dan Cockerton: 49:13

just so I just understand the question, paul, this is is how can we help our team members be more human when delivering it to clients, or are we talking about how we can deliver information and numbers to our team members in a human way?

Paul Shrimpling: 49:29

The latter the latter into the voluntary willingness to do more better, longer than we otherwise would have done if we hadn't been led and managed in the right way. How do we humanise the work that we're doing in such a way that we achieve better numbers? The team achieve those better numbers they love doing. It don't feel as though they're put upon.

Dan Cockerton: 49:52

They're fully engaged in what they're doing and, by the way, if they are that human being, it probably have a positive impact in their life outside of business as well yeah, well, I mean one of the things I can kind of um or one story I can share that I know a number of accounting firms now do, which I find super interesting. It's not something we've ever done, but, um, if I was running a bigger business with more employees, I think I would do, because the outcomes are pretty exceptional. So I'm a little believe is these accounting firms are now doing or not doubting the bigger ones definitely will do this already.

Dan Cockerton: 50:26

But this element around disk profiling and really understanding the personalities and the personality types of each person that's working with you and then delivering information to them in a way that's going to land well, depending on their personality type. I don't know if that's kind of extreme or not, but I found it fascinating that these firms of accountants were now doing disk profiling. I forget the name of the other one. Now there's another one Myers-Briggs. Myers-briggs.

Paul Shrimpling: 50:54

There's Myers-Briggs, there's EMA, there's one, now there's another one, myers-briggs, myers-briggs, there's myers-briggs, there's ima, ima. There's dozens of them, but it's, and they're, you know, most of them based on the same science. Um, just delivered in a different way.

Dan Cockerton: 51:05

Uh, levels of complexity and simplicity, but yes, and these guys are now delivering information, training, um, they are delivering kind of um, uh yeah, advice within the firm based on their personality.

Dan Cockerton: 51:18

I thought that was incredible.

Dan Cockerton: 51:21

You're obviously using it from a recruitment point of view so they can understand a bit more about the person that they are recruiting for.

Dan Cockerton: 51:29

But when I heard that these accountancy firms were now kind of using it in-house to deliver change and something that's potentially going to rock these people's worlds when you're changing a bit of software or you're delivering information in a certain way, is actually delivering it in a way that's going to land in the most constructive way possible for that person on the receiving end of it, which I thought was was amazing. Um, so that was kind of one one story that I had um come across and something people might want to deploy within their firms, and I think it's when being human. I think it's kind of going back to a lot about what we talked about earlier creating safe spaces, creating a space to fail essentially as well, that I can't remember who I was listening to online recently, but they now have a head of failure in their business because the quicker they're failing, the more innovative they're being and the quicker they get to the right decision and yeah.

Dan Cockerton: 52:35

Yeah, they're the kind of two things I can think of.

Paul Shrimpling: 52:37

Yeah, brilliant, you've just triggered something which is an old story, but I've recently started working with this firm again, and so whether people believe in timesheets or not matters not. I don't want to have that debate, but actually lots of firms track and measure recovery rates, write-offs across their firms, and I work with this firm and I'm going back to 2008-9 and 10. We worked with them for about three years back then and they had a recovery rate of between, on average, between 96 and 97, which anyone listening to this is going to go. Well, that's quite, that's quite good. And they consistently delivered that over time, which is um very good, and they created a safe space so-called and it clearly worked where they unpacked the three worst performing jobs that month from a recovery rate point of view and had the, the partner, the manager and the people who worked on that job around a table with a another partner director level to have an open, candid conversation about what went wrong, not to beat anyone up, not to cast blame in any way, shape or form, just to be curious enough, committed to help, enough, care enough to work out.

Paul Shrimpling: 53:59

What do we do to not make the same error again. It's not about the people, it's. What do we do to improve the processes and systems and maybe build some skill that prevents us making that error ever again on that job? And secondly, are the lessons here that we can apply to all the other jobs? And it's just creating that same, that safe space.

Paul Shrimpling: 54:21

Now, how's, how's this connected to um, this profile? It's not, but it is connected to create a safe space around which to have conversations around the failures. So it's connected to that failure piece, um, I just thought that was. And then we started working with this firm again and their recovery rates are below 90 now, but it's a profoundly different, bigger firm, but they've, you know, it's like Peter Thompson once saying to me isn't it interesting how people forget what they were good at? You know, if only I knew now what I knew then and lose something that really worked. I just thought that you know recovery review process, if you can create an environment where it feels safe because you're not going to beat anybody up, you're not going to cast any blames, really quite powerful. And how many is in your team, dan?

Dan Cockerton: 55:15

We're small, so we've got three of us full timetime and then we've co-worked with four or five freelancers on a fairly regular basis as well.

Paul Shrimpling: 55:22

Okay, all right, so we're in a similar space in terms of team size, but we never hire anybody without disk profiling. We don't, and what we do is disk profile the role and then disk profile the candidates for interview. And actually I won't get involved in the interview unless the disprofile has got a 75% overlay. Right, wow, because how can you do a job you love if your psychometric profiling doesn't lend yourself to that role? Now, don't get me wrong. Everyone can learn new skills, but are they ever going to be brilliant at it if they don't love doing it because it feels natural to them? I'm with you all the way on that one. So if we're going to humanise the numbers for our team, let's get the right people in the right role, the role that they love doing. But we've already created a challenge in this conversation today, haven't we about? Yeah, but they might not know they love that role unless they do it Well that's the art.

Paul Shrimpling: 56:19

You know, there's the science of leading and managing isn't there. But then there's the art of judgement in terms of can we nudge people to do something more than they think they can, which you probably do with Oscar and Harry, but do we do it enough with our team? Yeah, do we? Do we expect enough from our team? I wonder we do. Do we expect to have more enough from our team? I wonder. I wonder. You got any thoughts on that?

Dan Cockerton: 56:44

I don't know, oh yeah, I don't, I don't, I don't know, um, internally, um, we're always trying to push people and push boundaries and try and get them doing new things and learn new skills and um, so we are, as a business, very conscious of it. Whether I could agree that accounting firm owners are doing it enough, I don't know, I don't know. I think in, I think in general I'm generalizing here just from people that I know I think there's a lot of talent that isn't fully utilized in businesses generally. I have a small number of friends who they had been working for a business for absolutely years. They were doing that role, they were doing it well, but it's not until they've moved on to a more senior role or bigger role, where they've been allowed to spread their wings and they've just absolutely flown and taken their new business to another level. And I said to this guy my best friend actually.

Dan Cockerton: 57:55

I said you've done that previous role for eight or nine years. You didn't particularly like it. You like the business, you like the people, but isn't it mad what you're doing now, where you're leading this global business to new highs and this older company had all this talent there. They had you sitting there on that desk doing? That job and they had no idea because they never put you in that position.

Speaker 3: 58:17

Yeah so.

Dan Cockerton: 58:18

I do think there's a lot of wasted talent out there because we keep people in their comfort zones. They do a good job for us. We don't want to rock the boat or anything, but actually if you give them whatever it is, they need to progress or do better things, bigger things, maybe a bit of trust that the firm or the business could be rewarded for doing so. But it's like you say, sometimes people need that nudge to go and do that.

Paul Shrimpling: 58:51

Yeah, that's a powerful story that because, if you know, everyone listening to this have got a team of people across their firm and and they can look at that team, can't they go? One or more of these could be like a future CEO, but I can't see it. Um, and you won't see it because of something, not that they're doing, Maybe it's because of what we're doing or not doing that encourages and creates an environment in which they can flourish. Uh, so that's, you know. That's one of the reasons we set the podcast up, Dan was to get. Can we open maybe a little chink of a light door, window or whatever in people's brain and go actually, if I change something, we'll impact on everyone in our firm. If we change something or process in the business, we'll impact on every client so that they run a better business.

Paul Shrimpling: 59:32

You know your point earlier about our firm's success is dependent on our client's success. If we commit to that piece, then you start to see what the work you do in a slightly different light than where we just need to meet the regulators requirements. But you know it's very different business models in it, even though actually you know everyone set out to do both. But where's the emphasis and as we've got hit the regulation, don't get me wrong, but you know everyone in our team are a potential CEO or it's a potential world beater on. You know, are we having enough safe? I think that's coming out in this conversation, conversations with our team, so that they don't feel silly posing Um, well, I want your job, or you know I want to run in, or I want you know, I think I'd be really suited to tax. Yeah, but you're in bookkeeping. Yeah, let's maybe be a little bit more encouraging, maybe.

Dan Cockerton: 1:00:26

Yeah.

Paul Shrimpling: 1:00:27

I don't think there's any. Maybe in there. Quite frankly, Dan, I don't. I was talking about you know, let's encourage our team like we'd encourage our kids, and we'll probably end up with a better team as a consequence yeah so I've got two more pieces that I just want to say.

Paul Shrimpling: 1:00:44

Um, so we're sat two in the fat. You're more connected digitally than, arguably, anyone in a rounded way in the profession, or certainly up there in the top five or ten people in that space. Um, we're in the first quarter of 2025. When we're we're putting this together, what do you think's the one thing that um, people need to grasp the nettle, the metal of in 2025 digitally? Dan, I'm sure you've been asked this before and I I know it's a crazy question and I've left it till the end.

Dan Cockerton: 1:01:16

No, no, no, no, not at all. I just don't. I know we've kind of heard this a lot over the last 24 months, but I think the reason why I do kind of give this response when I'm asked this sort of question is you've got to it's stating the obvious, but you've got to seriously double down. On AI, like it is coming the tour, the rate in which it is accelerating and the development of it um is scary. It's scary and, as a, if I was an accounting firm owner today, I would give ownership of it to someone you know there's. It feels like every day the developments of this stuff is improving. I don't think we've had what Xero and cloud accounting did 15, 20 years ago and was the catalyst for that. I'm not sure we've quite had that product or that catalyst yet. Um, there's a couple of ai tools that are kind of um, that are around and and seem to be doing great things, but I I just it's something that we need to start thinking about now and watch where 2025 goes. Um, you know you've got ai agents and large language models and um you know these kind of like ai avatars, and it's just evolving and accelerating at a rapid rate of knots. I'm kind of feel guilty saying this, but I don't know enough about it and I'm kind of in the space. Yeah, so, as an accounting firm owner, somebody needs to be on this stuff. Um, look at the updates. We've got a guy coming in from the US to speak at the show, called Jason Stats. Follow him. He delivers AI content specifically for accountants and give somebody in the business ownership of it just to stay on top of it.

Dan Cockerton: 1:03:11

Where's this going? What are the updates Present back to the board once a month? Whatever it might be, let us know what's going on. How can we be incorporating it into the business? Um, you know, if there's ever, if there's a blip in the economy, it might be something that we have to lean on. Um, how can we use it today to become more efficient in our marketing, in our comms, in our tax guides or whatever it might be? Um, but yeah, sorry to give a boring answer because everybody's talking about it, but it's the one thing that I really think is gonna truly reshape and disrupt the profession over the next few years brilliant?

Paul Shrimpling: 1:03:49

yeah, there's, if I've heard you right it's just summarizing that is, there needs to be a committed champion in your business with time available to do something in terms of research, you know, investigate, test and measure stuff. And then the other thing I heard you say is and they report to the board every month because it's moving that fast. Oh yeah, stunning, yeah, at least yeah, at least yeah, I think that's. At least that's. That is scary when someone goes yeah, report to the boards.

Dan Cockerton: 1:04:19

Um well, cloud, cloud, cloud computing, paul, you know, as we know, made such a massive, had such a massive impact on this profession and the world, right and I think yeah he's gonna be do this, do the same, or more so, but faster. Um when? This and faster?

Paul Shrimpling: 1:04:38

yeah, yeah, much faster, much faster, cool, all right. Last question then, just wondering of everything we've covered off on this conversation, which has been very personal, about your son's eye challenge, and that personal goal has been big enough, and we've touched on disprofiling, we've touched on create a safe space to have a conversation. I'm just wondering what's made you think the most on this call that you're going to take away as something to dwell on and maybe make a decision on and maybe act on, Dan.

Dan Cockerton: 1:05:09

Yeah, I think our conversation and our insights into creating safe spaces for people I know we talked about it a number of times, but really creating safe spaces for people to ask questions be brave and failure is okay. You know, it's good to fail. If we're not failing, then we're not acting quick enough, we're not progressing quickly enough. So I'm going to think a lot about that after this. Okay, and make sure that we are giving our people, both internally and freelance, the opportunity to experiment, try new things and fail try and fail in a safe way.

Paul Shrimpling: 1:05:58

Yeah, which you know. Accountants listening to this will go, yeah, but we've got regulation, you can't, we can't, we can't run. So actually you can. It's just work out how to ensure there's a um training safety net in in play. You know, of course, I've had that conversation with others before.

Paul Shrimpling: 1:06:13

Dan, what I'll share with you is I'll send you, as a consequence of this, uh, a link to one of our business bite-sized business breakthrough reports on psychological safety. Uh, amy edmondson's one of the best writers on this, so it links to one of her books. I've got all of them key, key insight in being a great leader, great manager, great business, great client manager, for that matter. I think you've hit on a really powerful, powerful insight. Um, and for me, dan, we've been skirting around because we live in that human space. We've been skirting around AI. I did a gig in front of over 100 accountants about not quite a year ago, but almost, and they were all leaders of fairly lumpy firms and I asked them who's actually implementing something on AI in some part of your business? And I only had three hands go up. That's a year ago. I'd like to think it's different now, so really hoping that what comes out of the Digital Accountancy Show this year and the shift that every.

Paul Shrimpling: 1:07:18

I just want to pick on what you said. Someone needs to champion this. I agree you need a champion who's got responsibility, ownership that could be career-defining for them. Could be career-defining, couldn't it? Absolutely. But I also wonder if the accounts profession's been very much embedded with this command-and-control approach to innovation. It's sort of top-down innovation as opposed to bottom-up innovation. I just wondered if we can challenge people on this podcast a little. It's not just someone, it's everyone. Can you do something to encourage everyone to play around with this stuff and bring ideas to the space, because we've created a safe space in which to have a conversation about those ideas. I think the likelihood is you'll tap into something better faster that way than just isolating it and in and around one person.

Dan Cockerton: 1:08:01

That's such a great idea, Paul.

Paul Shrimpling: 1:08:03

Do have a champion and do get them to report every month minimum. Yeah that would be a good idea. Paul loved it, dan. This has been very personal, hasn't it?

Dan Cockerton: 1:08:13

Yeah, sorry about that, paul. No, no, no, I wasn't meaning to Honest to goodness.

Paul Shrimpling: 1:08:20

Don't apologise for crying out loud. I think it's. You know. We've got to connect with the human stuff because in there is the magic. I really, really appreciate you going so deep. I do no worries, loved it. Hopefully we'll have you back on again sometime soon. We could go for another hour. I'm sure we're not going to do that out of respect for your time just before a show. Dan, you've been a star. Really appreciate you taking time out. Thank you.

Dan Cockerton: 1:08:41

No, you're welcome, Paul. Thanks for having me on and yeah, hopefully see everyone soon.

Paul Shrimpling: 1:08:50

Right at the beginning of the podcast, Dan talked about helping your clients fall in love with the numbers through the way you share those numbers and create an environment where they want to ask you all the good and dumb ass questions. Well, on the Accountants Growth Academy, we do everything we can to work together with you and like-minded accountants ambitious accountants who want to really make a difference for their clients. So if you're vaguely interested in checking out the Accountants Growth Academy, go to the link in the show notes. You'll find more valuable discussions with the leaders of ambitious accounting firms. At humanizethenumbersonline, you can also sign up to be notified each time a new podcast is made available. You're about to hear a short excerpt from a podcast discussion with Roger Necht from the United States of America. If you like what you're hearing and you want to get more, please go to humanizethenumbersonline or go to your favorite podcast platform.

Speaker 3: 1:09:52

One of the things that I think we get caught up in as an accounting profession are the numbers. I mean, naturally, that's what we're drawn to, we like it, it's comfortable to us, but at the end of the day, we have to recognize that this is a people business, both our employees within the firm. As we're working with them, we have to see them for who they are and, at the same time, see what we can do to help them be successful. But it's likewise with our business clients. We're here to serve them so that they can accomplish their individual goals, and so it's not these relationships with a business, it's a business relationship with a person, and so what we just need to do is be reminded of the fact that, at the end of the day, as much as we may want to think this is a numbers business, it's truly a people business.