Paul Shrimpling: 0:05

Welcome to the Humanize the Numbers podcast series Leaders, managers and owners of ambitious accounting firms sharing insights, successes and issues that will challenge you and connect you and your firm to the ways and means of transforming your firm's results.

Elinor Perry: 0:22

I mean it's brilliant if a client comes to us and they've got it. Sometimes clients think when you're talking to prospects and they've got a year end coming up, they think, oh, we should stay with our existing accountant to do the year end. And I always say, oh no, it's brilliant if you come on board now, because we're doing a piece of work that needs doing anyway and actually we learn so much about you by doing your accounts.

Paul Shrimpling: 0:44

How do you create a high trust firm of accountants where clients trust you in a deep, reassuring way and your team trust that it's a great place to work and they want to look after your customers too? Well, that's what this podcast with Eleanor Perry is all about, so let's dive into this discussion with Eleanor now.

Elinor Perry: 1:06

Hi, I'm Eleanor Perry and I'm Managing Director of Pentland's Accountants and Advisors. We're primarily accountants for business owners and clients that want to grow their businesses, and this year I'm celebrating 20 years of owning the business 25 years of working in it but 20 years of ownership. So this year is a real celebration year. And a team of 12, we're based in Warwick and we love our clients, we love working with them and everything about what we do. Some days you know, not so good, but we like those too, actually because we learn lessons. But if I'm not being an accountant and doing what I love, then I have two beautiful grandchildren who are two and two and a half, which who I absolutely adore, and they really bring you back down to put your feet on the ground again about what matters and my grown up children and all of my family, and I love Devon. I love Devon. So eventually, when I'm not doing the whole accountancy thing, maybe you'll find me in Dartmouth sitting on the key there with some fish and chips and crabbing.

Paul Shrimpling: 2:20

Brilliant On the dock of the bay. There's a song there somewhere, isn't there somewhere? Brilliant, brilliant, brilliant on the dock of the bay there's a song there somewhere, isn't there somewhere? Brilliant, brilliant, yeah, um, I I'll get to the first question, normally asked, but love our clients, elena, really yes, yeah, love them, absolutely love them.

Elinor Perry: 2:35

I mean, we have days where you know, like any relationship, um, you fall out of love a little bit or you're a little bit frustrated or you're a little bit irritated but I'm sure they feel like that about us sometimes um, but we do genuinely love them. We've just had a celebration for the 20 years and we had over 130 people with us and, honestly, the, the love on the lawn we had to say, rather than love in the room, because we were had, it was a garden party and we were on a lawn, um, we had some guys capture it videographers, amazing couple and there is a video that that is about well, it probably could have gone on for about half an hour, but of me hugging and greeting people so I I definitely can say love, I can definitely say brilliant, brilliant.

Paul Shrimpling: 3:22

I had serious fomo when I was looking at that video, so I'm sorry I couldn't make it, that's okay that's okay, we'll do another celebration, yeah yeah, yeah, it's interesting because I've um, I've been out to a firm uh in europe recently and they've just had their hundred year anniversary.

Paul Shrimpling: 3:37

So it's like multiple generational and um and and they they had they put on an amazing show as well and it just shows you the they had 800 and odd people in a theatre, mostly customers. So it just shows you that I think there's potentially I don't think it's potentially, I think it's real an underestimation in the lives of accountants about the impact and emotional resonance they have with their clients and they necessarily. I don't know if you agree with this, but you can give me your thoughts. I was with a firm last week and one of the senior managers says well, I just delivered another set of accounts and I went whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, you delivered just another set of accounts. I've just come off the back of my post-year-end meeting where my accountant and feel entirely reassured and confident about the future of my post-year end meeting with my accountant and feel entirely reassured and confident about the future of my business.

Paul Shrimpling: 4:27

It's not just another set of accounts. There's something really valuable in that report when it comes with some interpretation and guidance that has an emotional impact on me as a business owner, and probably the same for every business owner. If only maybe the profession took it more seriously as not just a functional report about the finances, but a report that delivers an emotional reaction, emotional payoff in and around, reassurance if the numbers are safe and good, but even if they're not. You know your comment earlier. Sometimes you have tough days, sometimes you have a tough financial report. It's an opportunity to discuss and learn what you can do next. What are your thoughts on that?

Elinor Perry: 5:09

absolutely. I mean one of the. The parts of the celebration um meant that, uh, quite a bit of reflection of the last 20 years and, looking at the, the uh clients that had accepted and were able to join us, we actually um told some little stories about seven of the clients that had accepted and were able to join us. We actually told some little stories about seven of the clients that were with us and between them they'd been with us for 166 years. Those seven clients in length of service and just knowing their children, you know the life of. You know when babies were born unexpectedly and stepping in, when you've helped sell businesses, um, and you know people are there, you're there with them on.

Elinor Perry: 5:53

Well, my belief is, as a, as a business owner and as an accountant, you know the satisfaction in the job comes from being alongside that business and that family um, we work with a lot of family businesses and we've seen multiple generations of those families as well. So I wholeheartedly agree with that and if there is an element of humanizing those numbers, then people are able to understand that in. You know they can take away so much, much more. It's definitely just not a set of accounts brilliant, brilliant and that sort of answered.

Paul Shrimpling: 6:28

You know what, what starting questions, normally. You know what's your interpretation. How would you unpack, humanize the numbers? And it's seven, seven clients. Was it 176 years?

Paul Shrimpling: 6:37

you said 166 years, sorry, 166, 166 years so multi-generational, and that's an interesting phrase that Ellen be alongside them, and in my head it's just when it matters. And a set of management accounts or a set of annual accounts, that's when it matters. Probably the biggest part of their lives, other than their families, is their business, so you're alongside them when you're unpacking those numbers. I think it's underestimated the impact and power of that.

Elinor Perry: 7:13

Well, it's interesting because I thought you were going to ask me that. I know I've kind of answered it, but I have another answer.

Paul Shrimpling: 7:20

So can I go for it? Go for it, yeah, go for it.

Elinor Perry: 7:24

So we ask clients and I think this was probably something that came from working with you guys at Remarkable Practice but we ask clients to score the meeting at the end of the meeting. So you know, one being it's absolutely terrible. I never want to do it again To 10 being fabulous, I loved it. And we always say we're not expecting a 10. And we do it again to 10 being fabulous, I loved it. Um, and we always say we're not expecting a 10 and, um, we do it in person. So it is in the moment and we're not scoring the people. Uh, we are scoring. How do you feel when you're leaving this meeting?

Paul Shrimpling: 7:56

so it's a bit like net promoter score, but it's not anonymous, um it's not like net promoter score at all, but I'll unpack that in a minute. I'll unpack that in a minute. I'll unpack that in a minute. So you asked them to score the meeting on how they're feeling, from 1, hate it to 10, love it, to use your language.

Elinor Perry: 8:12

Yes, yes, yes. So yesterday I was in a post-GRM meeting, like you just said. So going through a client set of accounts went through everything. We always have an agenda, so we always know what we're going to do and the first question we ask clients is what's important to you today is what do they need to get from this? So the client yesterday, a lovely man called Matt, I said at the end did my little patter and he went 11. And I went, wow, okay, I've never had an 11. Actually, paul, I've had a 10, but I've never had lots of 10s, but I've never had an 11.

Paul Shrimpling: 9:05

Actually, paul, I've had a 10, but I've never had lots of 10s, but I've never had an 11. So I said, okay, um spinal tap, we're in spinal tap land now aren't we?

Elinor Perry: 9:12

yeah, you know, yeah, why 11, why 11? So anyway, I'll just you know. What he said was the meeting. We always have a pre-year-end meeting. So he said we made good decisions before the year end together. Everything that we've gone through today is as we expected. We did have a tough year, but that tough year we feel confident in these numbers. We made the right decision and we used the numbers, you know, in months. I think we met him in February at a March year end. In February had a March year end. We used the difficult year to make the right decisions that now the outcome of where we are is where we need to be and I just feel I can not worry about it and leave today, you know, knowing that everything is taken care of and that's all you need. Yeah, 10 would have done, but 11's great.

Paul Shrimpling: 10:04

Yeah, yeah, yeah, nine's good. Yes, exactly, yeah, yeah, yeah, nine's good.

Elinor Perry: 10:06

Yes, exactly, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Paul Shrimpling: 10:09

Eight's cooking as well.

Elinor Perry: 10:11

Yes so that's interesting.

Paul Shrimpling: 10:12

So in your opening comments you talked about, you know, there's those tough days in your own business, tough days in Matt's business, and you also, you know, signposted that opportunity to learn which ultimately boils down to making good decisions, like you facilitated with Matt. See, I've got this theory that the job of the profession is to help business leaders make better decisions. So it's not just deliver the report, it's get to a place where you're alongside them, to use your language, yes, influencing, guiding, nudging, which has got a responsibility attached to it and to a degree, there's some risk attached to that as well, because you're partly responsible. But it's stepping into that space of responsibility to bring all your experience to bear from all the clients that you work with, that this business owner hasn't got that. They've only got their business.

Paul Shrimpling: 11:17

Okay, they might see their customers and their suppliers, but they don't get behind the curtain like you do, alongside them to help them make the decision. So, fundamentally, I guess it's reassurance, isn't it? You're there to reassure, maybe, guide, influence, interpret the numbers in a better way so that they understand and appreciate the implications and consequences of those, and help them make a better decision. Where would, how would you interpret what I've just said?

Elinor Perry: 11:46

Yeah, absolutely. Well, that was one of the things that when Matt first came in and I said you know what's important to you today? He said you know it's not as good as it could be. He's in the world of recruitment. You know that's quite tough at the moment with the NI increases and the way the economy is. Then you know people's quite tough at the moment with the NI increases and the way the economy is. Then you know people aren't necessarily hiring. So I just said to him you know, look, we're seeing this.

Elinor Perry: 12:14

Most of my conversations I'm having with clients at the moment are very similar to the conversation that you and I are having. And he straight away sort of went oh, that's reassuring, yeah, so it's. It's about, you know, that there'll be always be the exception to the rule. There'll always be the clients that are flying high. They'll always, you know, and there'll be the clients that are, you know, in intensive care.

Elinor Perry: 12:38

But the majority, if you're able to, I think what you've said, if you're able to, I think what you've said we're able to take all of because we're close to the clients and we really understand the numbers and we understand the business and we understand what they're doing. We are able to, as a business, impart that knowledge. Although different sectors, different industries, you know fundamentally the economy drives the. You know the spend. I mean, if you're B2C it's slightly different, but the B2B world you're able to share that knowledge, experience, understanding with those. And you know I made a couple of recommendations in the meeting yesterday of people he could perhaps talk to. You know showed him a website of somebody that you know, I know does you know marketing and recruitment that do some free webinars? You know, even if he doesn't want to spend any money, you might want to join those webinars just to see if you can get some nuggets of information.

Elinor Perry: 13:40

So I wholeheartedly agree and I think it's our job. As you know, accountants and business owners working talking difficult conversations where you have to say to a client that you know you're spending too much money, you're you're missing this, you're you know. In my view, obviously never quite so blunt will always um, but I am straight talking. Clients do say I am straight talking and actually most of the clients like that the ambitious ones like that don't actually most of the clients like that.

Elinor Perry: 14:27

The ambitious ones like that, don't they? The ambitious ones like that, they know where they stand? Yeah, but I can also. You know, I'm very conscious that if a client's having a difficult time, of course I need to mirror my style and my delivery to how they're feeling.

Paul Shrimpling: 14:45

Yeah, because they come to you, uh, not to be beaten up they come to you for support and help, and you know it's interesting, you've gone it, you know it's just to repeat what we just said is that it's it's more than just about the numbers. Numbers are important. There's value in the numbers, uh, in the financial pieces, uh, and it's. You've used the word reassurance, guidance, and then you didn't use the word challenge, but it sounds like you're challenging clients when they're having difficult times so that they face up to them to make, and all of that leads into, I think is what you're saying what that leads into is they make a better decision yes, yes, absolutely.

Elinor Perry: 15:20

I mean some of the lovely, you know, as part of the 20 year celebrations. You know people have written little notes and cards and the amazing things that people have said about. You know, if you hadn't have helped us with this, oblivious to it, but I just see it as my job. It's my job. You know you're paying me for a service. You know I want to deliver an excellent service and I want to make sure that, as long as doing your accounts and your tax and everything else, we add value. But it's only when people reflect back with you about the success that they've achieved and the decisions that they've made off the back of um. Of course, it's their success, their business.

Elinor Perry: 16:12

You know that they're the hero they're the hero, but we're just that little part that we play in in that ability to be able to achieve that success.

Paul Shrimpling: 16:23

Yeah, brilliant, brilliant. You mentioned we get close to clients and your story about the seven clients 166 years, multi-generational. Would you unpack how exactly you get close to clients? So let's start from the beginning. We're recording this pod in July, so we're six months or so into this year. You've won new clients this year. I'm fairly certain you will have done that. So I'm just wondering, in the early stages, what is it you do to get close to the clients? Do they appreciate the value that you're delivering? What's your approach?

Elinor Perry: 17:01

Yes, okay. Approach yes, okay. So when somebody most of our new clients come from existing client referrals and from professional contacts we rarely get a Google search but we do occasionally and you know, obviously from social media as well, we get approaches. So when somebody first comes to the business, louise will normally take the first interaction who's the office manager? And the process is to set up an initial 30 minutes team's call with the prospect and that normally is a bit like going on a date really to see whether we think.

Elinor Perry: 17:47

From my point of view, I need to know whether these clients can fit our values, whether we can work together, whether they're aligned to the way we work, and for them to get an introduction and a little chat with me. It's normally me that does this initial 30 minute call and if that goes well and we, then we move to a face to face meeting. So after the face to face meeting we'll then deliver a quote and we're currently using Ignition. We know I'd say 90 percent of the time we provide three quotes. So manage, grow and maximize all coming from our work with Remarkable Practice.

Paul Shrimpling: 18:32

Stop promoting us, Ellen. You didn't stop promoting us.

Elinor Perry: 18:34

Yeah, that's fine, that's okay, it is you.

Paul Shrimpling: 18:37

It is you.

Elinor Perry: 18:38

I'm very grateful for the input. You know, yeah, so we give three quotes so they've always got somewhere to go. So we don't just offer one level of service. Some of those you know will involve me in the relationship, some will be primarily, you know, will be completely dealt with by the team. Once the client, they have an opportunity to ask questions, have another meeting on Teams if they need to, and then we always offer a kickstart meeting. So that's how we start the relationship. So we say that once you've accepted a quote, so we only work with business clients. So typically 100K turnover upwards would be our minimum biggest client, about 40 million turnover. So so for us we're not in that sort of transactional level of work.

Elinor Perry: 19:28

Um, so that kickstart meeting, wherever possible, will always be face to face. Um, we went a new client in scotland last year. So clearly we did it on zoom, not all right. Okay, I did think about going, I did think when. We probably will go and see them at some point, but we did do it on Zoom. But so the Kickstart meeting happens. There's an agenda for that meeting and it's about anything that we haven't talked about. It's about ticking off the ID, all of the know your client. It's getting the basics in place making sure that we yeah all the you know all of that.

Elinor Perry: 20:07

So in a nice way, not a we do a welcome on board email. So Louise sends a welcome on board email which is really friendly, really easy to understand, you know, says that you know we've written for clearance, you know you have free use of our meeting rooms anytime, you know just all of that. So we do all of that process. But then we follow up the welcome on board email with the kickstart meeting and then hopefully we tick off all of the things that we need to. But that is our way of truly getting to know the client at the beginning, truly getting to know the client at the beginning. And then the final step after that is we send them a chocolate bar and a little note when they've been into their kickstart meeting or we've had it online. Then we send I mean, sometimes we send three or four chocolate bars, depending on how many people are in the business.

Elinor Perry: 20:58

And it just has a little welcome on board postcard and we do a personal note whoever's going to be leading the relationship to say, yeah, really looking forward to working with you.

Paul Shrimpling: 21:09

Okay, so I'll just repeat that back. So, listening to this, they get the stage management to this Provisional qualification call with Louise leads into a 30-minute diagnostic with you, which has also got a qualification piece attached to it. So Louise might say they're not relevant, but her process means that they are. You see them on teams for 30 minutes. Uh, that results in a face-to-face meeting, in-person diagnostic. Um, that, if it goes well, results in a three option proposal with your three levels of services. Just again, just to remind, because I I was interrupting trying to be funny, but not uh, is it, was it manage? What's the middle one?

Paul Shrimpling: 21:55

manage, grow and maximize manage, grow, maximize, right, brilliant. So you've got labels for the three options that might suit and they're created presumably in a way that suits that particular client, based on the diagnostic you had earlier yes uh, there's a welcome on board email.

Paul Shrimpling: 22:11

Uh, there might be another um teams meeting before the welcome on board piece. And then what I love and it's you know we advocate this. There's a massive opportunity, isn't there around? Have a kickstart meeting to get all that admin done in a really nice way, rather than the client getting a bit hacked off because you chased. You've sent three emails and two phone calls, another couple of emails to get all the KYC stuff in place and then, just to top it off, the chocolate bar. What chocolate bar do you send?

Elinor Perry: 22:40

Yeah, we use an amazing company called Harry Spector and they're based in Leicestershire. They're not clients, but they employ lots of people with autism and they're a lovely, lovely business. And we found out about them when a client sent us a gift a box of chocolates from Harry Spector 10 years ago. We love the chocolate, so we now buy the chocolate bars.

Elinor Perry: 23:06

Right and we just so. Our little note says that you know we want to welcome you on board and we're really looking forward to working with you. Here's a little gift for you, but the gift that we're giving you is doing good.

Paul Shrimpling: 23:18

Some good, brilliant, yeah, yeah Throughout that whole process. What's the? What reaction do you get back from the clients for the whole process, not just the chocolate bar, but the whole process?

Elinor Perry: 23:28

The whole process very positive. Yes, I mean I think the it's. We want to make it one of our sort of um, internal sort of strap lines is no fuss, no surprises, just practical digital accounting advice. So the no fuss and no surprises are really important to us. So you know, one of the things that it says in our proposal is that you know, if you decide to change to us, you know most of the job is ours to bring you on board as a client. You know liaising with your exiting accountant, you know bringing you on board. So the last thing we want to do is make there. Of course there is a little bit for the clients, the new clients, to do, but we want to make is make there. Of course there is a little bit for the for the clients, the new clients, to do, but we want to make that as nice and as friendly and as easy as possible. So we keep in close contact. I mean, obviously the kickstart meeting is the first part of that, but the feedback is great.

Elinor Perry: 24:26

I mean, just an example a lady who'd onboarded in I think it was February time. She lives in Kendall now. She used to live locally to Warwickshire but she'd moved away. She was having an issue in the business. She contacted me, I helped her with that issue and then she onboarded. She's being looked after by Claire and Amy and the team. She drove all the way from Kendall for for the garden party, bless her. Um and you know, came and she said to me that morning she she hired a meeting room to work from the office before she came to celebrate with us and I popped down to say hello and at that you know she said oh, it's been so amazing, they've been so attentive, everything they.

Elinor Perry: 25:09

We'd had some quite difficult situations with the previous accountant and with hmrc onboarding that client yeah and it's been really frustrating for us and very time consuming, but we've just kept that communication going with emma and we've just tried to make it, as you know, as human as possible so she doesn't think, gosh, why did I change? This is all really difficult, um, but the advice that she'd received and the support, as I weighed any of the little and you know it wasn't as it was you know, the, the previous um and hmrc, who are, you know, on a weekly basis, called it causing us challenges, yeah, or causing the team challenges.

Paul Shrimpling: 25:54

I'm lucky not to get involved, maybe causing the UK challenges, I think.

Elinor Perry: 26:01

Yeah, sorry if you're listening. Anybody from HMRC? I'm from HMRC, yeah, I do.

Paul Shrimpling: 26:06

So one of the pushbacks we get out, luna, is why would we have our team go to a kickstart meeting when we can do it by phone or teams or email? There's, that's just a waste of time, travel time there, travel time back, or okay, they might show up at the office to do it, but, um, but we do get pushback, uh on that. Uh, because we, we recommend people to do that in that space, because it um, um, there's a phrase which I, if I can't, if I get a chance, I'll unpack it, but there's, uh, what's got right in my head is um, slow is smooth, smooth is fast, and it's almost as if the kickstart meeting is using more time so it slows you down, but actually in the end it speeds stuff up. I don't know if that resonates at all but so why?

Paul Shrimpling: 26:51

why do you insist on that kickstart meeting when others will push back and go?

Elinor Perry: 26:55

well, that's just not good chargeable time well, um, mainly because the that human connection at the beginning and building the trust and building the relationship to set the tone is very, very, very important. So, yes, you'll be spending more. I mean, we don't do timesheets, so actually we're not working in that way, so there isn't anything that's going down. We're working on how much profit we're delivering as a team and how much turnover. So you know that that doesn't play into my team's view of the world, so you know they need to deliver the best possible.

Elinor Perry: 27:43

Now, yes, of course we need to make money and, yes, of course, if we look, we are aware of how much time we're spending on a client and we would be remiss if we let something go on, how much time we're spending on a client and we would be remiss if we let something go on. But we expect in the first six to 12 months of working with a new client to be probably at breakeven if we're lucky, or maybe even a little bit of a loss in that first year, because we're looking for that 5, 10, 15, 20 year relationship with that client and obviously then that upfront time is what pays dividend further down the line yeah, yeah, that's.

Paul Shrimpling: 28:17

You know you say that build the trust, set the tone and have a focus on the lifetime value if you want to take a commercial perspective. But actually you won't have a lifetime value if you haven't started an important relationship from the customer's point of view in the right way. You know you never get, you never what's it? You never get a second chance to make a first impression. The kickstart meeting does that, as opposed to chasing the life out of a client to tick all the kyc boxes is uh, that's just not a good way to build a trusting relationship, is it?

Elinor Perry: 28:48

yeah, you're probably using a similar amount of time, albeit maybe you know an administration person or an admin person, but how is that client feeling? About you know if, if we all, if we go and you know, have a new service, or if we buy a new car, or if we do something ourselves and we're invested, you know we want to come away feeling that we it a good decision. You know, and that I suppose that's always in my in my mind is you know that how the clients are feeling? Yeah, yeah.

Paul Shrimpling: 29:19

Yeah, yeah, I was running a training session yesterday for 12 managers uh, or with 12 managers, cause they did most of the work. I don't. You know, it's either going to do the stuff. Um, um, we were just unpacking that. Um, you know, there's the timing stuff, there's the quantity and quality of the service stuff, but there's the relationship stuff. You know we've touched on this in many meetings in the past. You know the tqr. We now call it, um. So timeliness of what you're doing, the quantity and quality of what you're doing, and then the relationship piece of what you're doing, and then the relationship piece, and most people, when they really sit down and think deeply about it, rank one of those higher. Sorry, if you think about your client's perspective on, is it the timeliness, is it the quantity, quality of what's being done, or is it the depth of the relationship that matters most, or is it the depth of the relationship that matters most? I can fairly well predict your answer. Often that gets lost, so you'd plump for which of those has been most important to the client.

Elinor Perry: 30:20

Yeah, the depth of the relationship definitely, but I also think, depending on the style of the client and the business owner, obviously the detail can be very important as well, but it's, you know, it is about upskilling us as quickly as possible in that client's business, you know, understanding that business as quickly as we can to get to some added value and I mean it's brilliant if a client comes to us and they've got it.

Elinor Perry: 30:53

Sometimes clients think when you're talking to prospects and they've got a year end coming up, they think, oh, we should stay with our existing accountant to do the year end.

Elinor Perry: 31:01

And I always say, oh no, it's brilliant if you come on board now, because we're doing a piece of work that needs doing anyway and actually we learn so much about you by doing your accounts so you know I will yeah, I, I always say that when, um, when a client, you know, sometimes an objection can be oh, we're not quite ready to move yet, because they know everything, and it's like, okay, well, they know everything, but we need to know everything, so give it to us to do love that, love that um, because I've heard that so many times.

Paul Shrimpling: 31:34

I've not heard anyone actually unpack. Actually, that's a really good thing for us to do. I like that a lot. Um, so every client's different, which you're hinting at. Um, I thought I would suggest every client timeliness matters. The quantity and quality of what you're doing matters just. Relationship matters more most probably. Um, okay, not every client's wired that way, but in, in the general scheme of things, people are choosing an accountant to look after them, not just deliver reports, which we've touched on um already. Uh, I mean, they're just, you know the man this manage, grow, maximize, piece what's uh. Would you unpack that for us? Because it's um that, to a degree, I guess, signposts different clients want different input. Um, what's that all about?

Elinor Perry: 32:21

yes, so it primarily to give clients or prospects and clients a choice and also um, so the the three levels manage obviously is is the sort of starting point. We take care of everything, keep it all ticking along. You know no worries there. You know nuts and bolts. That typically means that they'll have a pre-rend phone call rather than a meeting, post-rend meeting. But every service you can bolt on something from a grow if you need it. So a grow client would typically have a minimum of two meetings a year, quite often four or six. So a grow client would have a face-to-face or teams pre-URM meeting, tax planning meeting. We would have prepped for that with corporation tax and personal tax. They'll have a post-GRM meeting, but quite a few of the Grow clients take a quarterly meeting to keep on track.

Elinor Perry: 33:25

And Grow includes management accounts. It includes VAT return checks. You know all sorts of things. The maximized clients they're probably the minority in the business but they're typically where I will be in every meeting. You know, be guaranteed that I will be leading every meeting with a maximized client. They will typically probably be. You know, 20 to 25,000 pound a year in fees, annual fees, and yeah, they require a lot. But all clients at all levels, whether you're manage, grow or maximize.

Elinor Perry: 34:05

In our proposal it says that you have unlimited phone calls and you know emails to us at any point during your week. All clients pay monthly by direct debit. Well, I say all. There's probably a tiny percentage that don't, but the majority of clients pay, so they're on a retainer, so it's a retained model and they can ring us up and email us at any time without the fear of a bill and if, when we've talked to them, we can resolve it. The team's perspective is that if something takes about half an hour, you're fine. 15 minutes, half an hour, you just go ahead and you deal with it. If you need to give written advice, or if it's something that we need to go away and research, or it's a high value query, or it's a report or it's then we quote. So we quote and we call it well Woo's Windows of Opportunity, which is one of yours.

Paul Shrimpling: 35:10

It was one of Peter Thompson's actually, peter Thompson's, okay. Well, via you, via you, so it becomes a Woo, which is, which is one of yours. It was one of peter thompson's actually, but peter thompson's, okay so it becomes a woo um.

Elinor Perry: 35:17

The woo is quoted to the client. They agree the woo, we do the work and we bill at the end of the month. Um yeah, yeah, so the clients always, always know where they are. They've never got a fear to pick up the phone or talk to us, and they know that if something's going to cost more money, they'll know what it's going to cost before they commit to having it done all right.

Paul Shrimpling: 35:41

So there's. There's none of those conversations post doing a piece of work that they said they wanted without them knowing the price, and then organizing and negotiating the price after you've done the work malarkey, no, no, no. I mean, very occasionally we get the, you know, oh, I've been there, yeah, but your default approach is the one you've just described, which is extra work order, ewoo, probably from your windows of opportunity, which is signposting what they need, what they might want, or frameworks that deliver results.

Speaker 4: 36:11

Please forgive this brief interruption. You secure the future profitability and future growth of your firm when your clients become more loyal, buy more from you, are happy to pay more and also recommend you more. These four important outcomes depend entirely on the behaviour and mindset of one group of people your client managers. When your client managers improve their skills and mindset, your firm results naturally improve too. If you think that you could do more to build your client manager's capabilities, please click the Remarkable Client Manager link in the show notes. When you do, you'll be able to complete the client manager diagnostic. It won't cost you anything and you'll discover the six elements that can help your managers unlock greater success in your firm.

Paul Shrimpling: 37:04

So we've got manage grow maximise. Maximise fees around 20, 20, 25k. What level of the grow? If they're in grow, what sort of? Yeah, so grow.

Elinor Perry: 37:17

So typically probably sort of six to ten you know 6k upwards would be a grow client maybe a bit more now I'm trying to push that up a little bit more and a managed client. Typically the fee started around 2k for the smallest um. So you're absolutely right with louise. When she does the qualification of somebody who's maybe contacted us, you know we will be saying the fee start at 200 pounds a month and you know if that then puts somebody you know we know we're not right for everybody yeah, we don't want to be right for everybody, we we know, we want to deliver a high value service and and that comes with a level of fees to allow that to happen yeah, yeah.

Paul Shrimpling: 38:00

So, just just so that people get a sense of the numbers. I mean so we've got you, uh, managed 2k plus grow 6k plus maximize 20k plus, uh, in total how many customers?

Elinor Perry: 38:15

yes, we're about 220 business clients at the moment 220 clients.

Paul Shrimpling: 38:22

Okay, and how many is in your team?

Elinor Perry: 38:25

uh, there is nine in the core team and then three um consultants as well that support us.

Paul Shrimpling: 38:32

Right, okay, brilliant, thank you All. Right. Cool, you've got capacity in there, or is that tight? I'm just wondering where you're at in terms of. You know, that phrase we often use is capacity before growth. I'm just wondering what the growth potential in the firm is.

Elinor Perry: 38:50

Yeah, well, we're definitely. We've set some quite ambitious growth targets ourselves.

Paul Shrimpling: 38:56

Good to hear.

Elinor Perry: 38:57

Yes, so we are pushing on with that in this year. We probably have a little bit of capacity. We do a little bit of outsourcing of various service levels, some of the what we call the grunt work, the sort of the key accounts part. So we do a little bit of outsourcing there. We do outsourcing of payroll services and we work with a number of bookkeepers, um, that we've worked with for many, many years. So we and and the growth consultant that we have on board has. So we do have capacity.

Elinor Perry: 39:27

But I'm always, you know, I'm looking at CVs at the moment, you know, because I'm always conscious that as we take the next step up, you know when team members have been in a very different environment to ours. Obviously, sometimes it takes a while for us to find that that right person to join us yeah, yeah, that client focus team.

Paul Shrimpling: 40:04

This is a team effort piece, isn't it? Yeah, brilliant, so let's just dive into that space. So so we've, we've, you know we've, we've talked 40 minutes about that. Humanize the numbers, experience from the client's perspective. How does it, how does it play out for your team? You know, do you, in inverted commas, humanize the numbers for your, for your team of nine plus three, plus outsourcers?

Elinor Perry: 40:29

yes, definitely. Well, we probably by seven or eight years ago we started working using Entrepreneurial Operating System EOS, which is an American tool which I've sort of de-Americanized in lots of places, but I love the principles of it.

Paul Shrimpling: 40:49

Yeah, it's a good framework, isn't it?

Elinor Perry: 40:50

It's a brilliant framework, and so we have a company update every 12 weeks. I love the principles of it. Yeah, it's a good framework, isn't it? It's a really good framework, it's a brilliant framework. And so we have a company update every 12 weeks, which I've just delivered this week with the team. So we have 90 minutes together where we look at where have we been, where are we now and where are we going, and it's the same every 12 weeks. We have a quarterly bonus scheme in place. So the team see the numbers, they see the turnover, the gross profit, the net profit. They get to know if they've achieved a bonus from those figures and we talk about celebrations. So we start the meeting with what's been the best thing in the quarter for you from a personal point of view and in the business everyone get a voice in that helena?

Paul Shrimpling: 41:37

does everyone speak, is that?

Elinor Perry: 41:38

yeah, yeah, we do a little, we do a little mind map on a flip chart with everybody's best and we we keep them, and so we know, you know what was good um so we it's very much.

Elinor Perry: 41:50

And then those lead on from that quarterly conversation to sorry, from the company update into quarterly conversations. So then within two weeks they get an individual kind of what's working, what's not working conversation with the person they report to, which allows them time and space to talk about where they are personally, and that's been probably one of the best things that I've ever done in the business is to have that structure. There's quarterly board meetings, which the leadership team we have an outside consultant that comes in once a quarter and then EOS prompts annual reviews as well. There's so much to it, but what I love most is that it delivers the information that everybody knows what the vision is. Everybody understands what their part is. We're working really hard on the processes and the data this year to improve. That allows us to deal with issues as they surface in the business, which of course, there always is. You know there are always issues in every business. There are always challenges, there are always frustrations, but EOS is a great model in dealing with that and moving on from it.

Paul Shrimpling: 43:24

Brilliant, brilliant. So this is a hard question to answer, only because I'm trying to get you to climb in other people's shoes. But if we, if we were to like, you know, I'm sailing to your team. You're not there, taz is not there. We'll go right. Describe the culture of Pentlands. What would they say?

Elinor Perry: 43:45

Well, we've had a lot of that sort of said in the last month or so, but, like a family, like they're there for each other, they're supporting each other, um, they want the best for each other. Yeah, they sometimes clash, you know. They sometimes butt heads about things, you know, um, which is normal, but that's, you know. Again, a bit like going back to the you know my dating analogy, you know, and relationship analogy that that's healthy, you know. Having that analogy, you know. And relationship analogy that that's healthy, you know. Having that, that conversation, or you know.

Elinor Perry: 44:20

So I think we, we, we very much promote a culture of if something, you know, I've talked about that this week, actually, because something didn't go as well as it could have done or should have done, and I just said that we've got to learn. What can we learn from this? You know, how do we put it right? That's the first thing. Let's put it right. If the person involved has already apologized and said you know they should have done this differently, you over the head if you've done something. We all make mistakes, I make mistakes, but it's putting your hand up quickly to that mistake, finding the solution and moving on from it. And you know, I'd like to think that if I'm not here, um, that all still happens in the same way, whether I'm here or whether I'm in. I mean, I am stepping back from that. You know the team reporting to me and you know I employed an amazing lady called Claire in January as client director and the team now all report to Claire and all the quarterly conversations are with Claire.

Paul Shrimpling: 45:26

OK, ok, so OK, hiring great people always a resort for any firm, isn't it? But I just want to. There's something important here around you talk about. Look, sometimes people do butt heads, but you're encouraging constructive conflict rather than letting it fester, is my interpretation of what you said. Yes, and because we've got a culture of learning, it means that people are willing to acknowledge a mistake and then it gets managed in a positive way, because every mistake is a learning opportunity. You've got to have a place of fairly strong psychological safety for people to fess up to a cock up, haven't you, eleanor?

Elinor Perry: 46:07

Yeah, and I think we just it's the talking piece. I mean it comes easier to some than others. I, you know, being totally honest, you know sometimes people you know take a while to acknowledge, but we just keep having those conversations and we keep saying you know it's a learning no-transcript and the processes really help with this. The processes and we've, you know we recognize we were weaker in that area than we would like you know we wanted to be, and so we've been driving forward the ways in supporting the team to help them do the best job they can. We now have this kind of all firm checklist for a set of accounts and it's been given a name of cap. I don't know why cap, but it's been given a name of cap. So you know the language needs to be around. You know, if something goes wrong, did you, did you look at cap? Did you, did you follow it? It should catch all the things that you need to do um and and rather than and, just keep re.

Elinor Perry: 47:45

But you know, one of the things I was thinking about recently was the habit and the trigger. You know the book, the, the power of habit yeah, charles doohig.

Paul Shrimpling: 47:53

Yeah, brilliant yes I.

Elinor Perry: 47:55

I've just been talking to a client about that book this week so and I realized as I was having that conversation and I gave them the the business bite size, I thought I need to read that myself and you know. So we're now going to try and build into these processes the triggers that will help people to do a good and consistent job. But yeah, it's not always, you know, it's not always a bed of roses, but most of the time people will say look, sorry, I didn't do as good a job as I could have or should have done on this.

Paul Shrimpling: 48:28

Brilliant. So there's another business breakthrough the Bikes House Business Breakthrough Report around the power of checklists from the Checklist Manifestoo, which is another brilliant genius piece. Uh, and what we'll do is we'll put the um, uh, the power of habit, and uh, the checklist manifesto links into the uh, into the show notes, plus people. If you listen to this, you can get access to the? Uh, the actual business breakthrough reports as well. So they can, they can, um, you know the time it takes to drink a cup of tea or coffee. They can, they can access what we think are the most powerful insights in those two books and the research that backs them up.

Paul Shrimpling: 49:07

It's that we don't get on a flight, do we ever, without having the confidence that they're going to do a pre-flight checklist. And if a captain ever came on the tannoy and said, I've flown this plane about 300 times the last month, so I'm not bothering with the pre-flight checklist, we're just going to wing, it Isn't really acceptable to the 300 passengers that are sat behind him or her. And yet it's interesting, isn't it, how in an accounting firm, different people are reviewing files in a different way. You know, accounts, file, kickstart, meetings with team members are run in a different way within the same firm and you're not creating a standard. You haven't got the depth of, or respect the process enough, and if you haven't got a consistent process, how do you improve it?

Paul Shrimpling: 49:54

Because if everyone's doing it in a slightly different way, we've just come back from I took 12 accountants to a manufacturing business recently to see how lean process improvement works, and they all struggle to keep their tongues in their mouth because it's just awe inspiring as to what's possible when you truly respect the process and you respect the people, and you know the fact that we've gone from OK. Respect the value that you deliver for your client in this podcast and the fact that we've gone from OK. Respect the value that you deliver for your client in this podcast. Respect the team and create a safe space so that everyone can learn from their mistakes and respect the process, and you create an opportunity to improve that process and therefore improve the value to the client. Improve the team's experience, which should follow on, shouldn't it? We'll drop into your bottom line profitability.

Elinor Perry: 50:42

Absolutely, absolutely should follow on, shouldn't? It will drop into your bottom line profitability, absolutely, absolutely. If we do a job in an efficient way, in a consistent way, then the profit numbers should follow, just a consequence of doing a good job. Yeah because we're not yes, because we're not doing time cheats.

Paul Shrimpling: 50:57

That's, you know that's all the people doing time sheets listening to this are now twitching. I know they're all going.

Elinor Perry: 51:03

Oh God, oh God. We do do as part of that pre-job, though. We have a pre-job with the lead and the support on the job, and we do indicate the hours that we think the job should take. So the CAP spreadsheet starts with pre-job. Let's have a chat before we even start doing the accounts, and we do give an indication of hours. So a team member knows that you know they haven't got a week, they've got seven hours, they've got whatever it looks like. So there is there, isn't it? But we're not.

Paul Shrimpling: 51:32

There's controls in there there's controls, but yeah, so it's not just expectation management. Yeah, yeah, um, you run the. Just curious if you run the gallup q12 survey in your team. I can't remember whether you've been there. No, no, I haven't. I was with a firm last week and we've been challenging them on their team engagement Sounds as though yours would be pretty high, but it'd be interesting to get that number for the sake of a small spend. But that's entirely up to you and their Gallop q12 engagement score.

Speaker 3: 52:07

Well, it's interesting um, have we got time? Yeah, we have.

Paul Shrimpling: 52:08

If you're up for it, I'll play again. So, um, I know this is a very generalized question, but on in on a scale of one to a hundred, and you look at your team in the round, how engaged would you say they are on a scale of one to a hundred? I'd say 80 80, wow, okay, 80 cool beans. Um, if we were to look at the world's employees, do you think, uh, the world's employee engagement score be higher or lower than yours?

Paul Shrimpling: 52:39

lower okay, it's 35. The world results. Okay, uh, the uk higher or lower than the world average, bearing in mind, the world average is asia, africa, uh, you know, the whole of europe, uh, north america and so on, higher or lower in the uk higher 11. It's lower, oh my goodness.

Paul Shrimpling: 53:02

Yeah, the accountancy profession Higher or lower than the UK average Accountancy profession in Europe because we've got Gallic Q12 surveys from about 100. We've got 100 examples now, just short of so we've got a bit of a mean and we're building a report that we'll share with people later in the year.

Elinor Perry: 53:21

Higher or lower? I'm hoping it would be higher, but I know you're going to say lower, no, no, no, it's the county profession about 30.

Paul Shrimpling: 53:27

It's about the world average, about 34, 35. I'm waiting for the team just to give me the accurate stats. But you know, cursory gland shows um and you're saying yours is 80.

Elinor Perry: 53:36

Yes, well, we do something called friday pulse, so I don't know whether you've heard of Friday Pulse.

Speaker 3: 53:42

I have, I have.

Elinor Perry: 53:43

Yeah, we do a weekly check-in where we celebrate successes, we thank team members, we share frustrations and ideas.

Paul Shrimpling: 53:53

So we've been running that in the business now for about six months and every quarter they obviously do a check-in and you know a lot of it is anonymous, so you are able to track the happiness score and it's a safe space to answer things that's really interesting, eleanor, because, uh, question four in the gallup q12 is, as someone recognize you're doing good work or hard work in the last seven days and so that that Friday pulse process is prompting and triggering, to use the habit loop concept. So maybe you ask but if you are at 80, eleanor, according to Gallup you're right at the top of the quartile percentages across the world, so you'd be knocking it out of the park.

Paul Shrimpling: 54:44

Maybe I'm being a bit optimistic if we get if we did the scores, but you know, but if you, if you wanted to run that gallop, q12. So I think it costs down to 15 or 20 quid ahead, so it doesn't cost a lot of money, and then we can feed your numbers into the um, into the research report, if you fancy doing that yeah, it sounds like a good idea yeah, with the firm I was with, I was talking to this week, they went from.

Paul Shrimpling: 55:04

They had a score when they first did it was 1616, and then they did it again six months later and it was went from 16 to what does it go? 16 to? I think it was just north of north of 30, 31, um. And then they did six months later and I've just seen that one and that's at 52. Brilliant, you and you go. That's brilliant. And because they've used the indicators in Gallup to influence and drive behaviours. By the way, the weekly one-to-one was the predominant process that's driven an improvement in the culture of that business. Yeah, fascinating, fascinating. So, coming to the end, I'm wondering two last questions. One is what do you think the biggest challenge facing your business is? Going forward.

Elinor Perry: 55:51

Oh, all the changes I thought I'd finish on an easy one. Yeah, just an easy one. Just an easy one. You've just got a minute for ai. Ai making tax digital, you know, and just the the constant um.

Elinor Perry: 56:07

You know, companies house all of the changes that are coming in in the profession I mean of course, as we settle into them and they've, and we've bedded them in, it'll be fine, but it does seem to be at the moment. Every week there's a new announcement about something that we've got to, uh, and we're trying to do our job. You know, we're trying to look after the clients, we're trying to, you know, and we just seem to be I mean, luckily it's tass's domain, all of that um, but it it does seem quite pressurized at the moment yeah, it's that leading and managing change, isn't it?

Paul Shrimpling: 56:40

whether it's an ai piece of change, an mtd piece change, a company house piece of change, other regulations from the government, wherever they land, socioeconomic changes, cultural changes, gen Z, gen Y, we're in a space, aren't we? Where the what is it?

Paul Shrimpling: 56:56

they say the rate of change we're experiencing now is the slowest it will ever be, and you go, oh goodness, because it's, it's ramping up yeah let's wrap up this podcast with a bit of depression, that's yeah yeah, great, um, but but and I just I do think it's our ability culturally, which is, you know, the fact that you've got such a high cultural tone to your business sets you up for leading and managing change in a really positive frame, because we're going to make mistakes, we're going to learn from it. You know that whole thing lends itself to a better leading and managing change piece. Yeah, cool.

Speaker 4: 57:34

Yeah.

Paul Shrimpling: 57:35

Something to take seriously for other firms, I think. So just wondering what from the podcast today, our discussion today, really has just resonated with you. You're doing lots of good things, clearly, but it's the one thing from our conversation today which makes you go. Now I need to revisit that or look at something different in a deeper way. What's what stood out from this conversation today that you think's been of value to you?

Elinor Perry: 58:03

yeah, it's been really interesting to reflect on the, the sort of a lot of it is process and hearing you say it back to me as has been really interesting. I think, um, it had already triggered earlier this week about the habit and the triggers with the processes, because that's probably our biggest frustration in the business at the moment and, don't get me wrong, the bar is set very high. So you know, we're still. It's very rare that we would ever drop a ball with a client or the client would even know that. But obviously we want to have that consistency. So I suppose it's that consistency piece and ensuring, when you described it as sort of the, the coming on board, the kickstart, the culture, the looking after them, and then you put the process onto that as well it is really, you know, it is that end-to-end ability to be able and perhaps I need to just say that to the team, because that's actually a really nice way of of describing it to make.

Elinor Perry: 59:08

Sometimes the jigsaw puzzle pieces don't quite come together until, um, you put them together, you know, and then you finish it and you say, oh yeah that's what it is, um, so that's brilliant.

Paul Shrimpling: 59:21

You've made me think of. In the world of, you know, I always struggle with the word, but in the world of building your brand you know the Pentland's brand one of the strongest phrases that has ever come to me in this space is your brand is reflected end to end in everything that you do. And so well, what do you stand for? What's your core purpose? Business vision, yes, great, but your core purpose, how's that showing up end to end? Because then your brand is embedded in everything you do within the firm. And it's just made me reflect on, you know, have we got humanised the numbers embedded in every process, for every service line that we work on, in every process? Um, so that's made me reflect on that as well. Brilliant, elena, it's been a glorious hour. I really appreciate you taking time out. I know it's busy and you've got lots of outside interests as well. Um, I can't thank you enough. It's been a real joy.

Elinor Perry: 1:00:19

Thank you.

Paul Shrimpling: 1:00:20

Well, I've I've thoroughly enjoyed it, paul, so thank you in this podcast, ella's unpacked a number of things about how to build deep, trusting relationships with clients, how to build a high performing culture that supports the client work and also delivers a business that she's very proud of. Clearly, this is the work that we do in the Accountants Growth Academy, and if you want to investigate how you can work with like-minded, ambitious accountants to help you lead and manage change in your firm, check out the URL link for the Growth Academy in the show notes. You'll find more valuable discussions with the leaders of ambitious accounting firms at humanizethenumbersonline.

Speaker 4: 1:01:10

You can also sign up to be notified each time a new podcast is made available you're about to hear a short snippet, an excerpt from a podcast with alan farley of farley doll white in ireland. If you'd like to hear more, go to your podcast platform or listen.

Speaker 3: 1:01:34

To unhumanize the numbers dot online and what I do talk about that dog. A lot is about the all blacks and I talk to the staff about the All Blacks and it's very important because as a squad they meet for breakfast every morning. You know, they all know something well, they all know about each other. It's not just superficial, it's more in depth, so they will know if people are suffering, they'll know if they're elated, they'll know. If people are suffering, they'll know if they're. If they're elated, they'll know where they are in life.

Speaker 3: 1:02:04

So, and I think that's very important and I try to do that as much as I can doug to go around the office, say hello to everybody in the morning, because I think it is important, it doesn't take long to do and you know you get a little bit of feedback. People will ask you questions along the way, you know, and you know, you know you just touch base. Maybe someone's grand is not feeling well, or maybe the child is a wee bit off, or you know, and it's good to be able to just check in with people and make sure you know that that culture is there, that we just show that we are a people first firm.