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But we ask our prospects three very important questions. At the start we say can you please tell me what does success look like to you personally 12 months to a day? Can you please tell me what does success look like to you in business 12 months to a day? And can you please tell me how this relationship would be considered a success 12 months to a day Business owner and accountant? And how will you measure the impact? Success 12 months a day business owner and accountant. And how will you measure the impact Once we have that, we can then see. Can we make an impact which justifies their investment in us? If we can't, we don't quote and signpost them elsewhere. Three simple questions Hi everybody.

Doug Aitken: 1:32

My name is Graeme Tennick from Tennick Accountants, chief Impact Officer if you want to look online, and we are seeking to change lives, one conversation at a time.

Graeme Tennick: 2:01

Well, it's interesting, it's a bit of a funny story, a couple of strands which fed off this. So it actually came about off a conversation with the legendary Paul Dunn, one of the co-founders of B1G1. I was across at the accountant's boot camp with good friends of mine, gareth Burton and Paul Miller in Brisbane, and we were across there doing the accountant's boot camp and we were across there doing the accounts boot camp and I was just having a chat with Paul and, as Paul does, he has so many magical nuggets. I was chatting about what I was passionate about, the difference I wanted to make, the difference the firm wanted to make. And he chatted about the title and he inspired me with the title of Chief Impact Officer. So if Paul is listening, credit to Paul in terms of it. But when I came back, you can begin to imagine how it was received, because people are like the what? And when you actually say I'm the CIO, it has multiple meanings all appropriate again, just so we don't need to have an age restriction on this but one of the ones that says what you're the chief information officer. And I was like but, and then I had some people saying the chief officer, what are you on about? I said just bear with us, and you're going to start to see the next steps which came off the back of the brisbane trip, um, where we went on a huge journey which I'll share, obviously, very shortly. But, yeah, I was inspired off one conversation with somebody else which changed our business life and our personal life, and there's a lot more accepted there now and it's a lot more embedded in multiple things that the firm has been up to since the last recording. And I do have to say at this point as well thank you very much for being so kind to have me back a second time. Some people might not have me a first time, so I want to thank you. The energy is unbelievable. It's like an extended relative of the family and it's these sort of things. When you start surrounding yourself with people such as that, it just elevates you to a completely different um place. But also it's fascinating and again, this is obviously the theme of the podcast, uh, which I'll come back very, very shortly. He brought back into focus things which had been lost a little bit um, which I think, sadly, are still lost within the accountancy profession today, um, and he highlighted those in such a beautiful way to bring it back in the current climate. It was just magical.

Graeme Tennick: 5:23

Well, just before I answer that, I think the term humanise your numbers is even more important today than what it was when we last did the recording, using the numbers to guide business owners inside and outside of their business to find answers to questions they never thought to ask. Now, if I break that down a little bit more detail, particularly in the current climate, this has been the case for quite a while. There's a lot of noise across social media and various platforms that once was confined to your local pub, across social media and various platforms that once was confined to your local pub. So that means everybody's got an opinion. There are multiple ways of assessing how well or badly you're doing, based on, maybe, a book you've read, still a conversation at events, something you've read online via LinkedIn, facebook, tiktok, instagram. Multiple different things with regards to that, but only the one place of truth is your numbers. But we must humanise the numbers to make an impact, and that's why we always speak of being an impact-driven firm and the title Chief Impact Officer comes from. So, by working on those numbers, those numbers give you guidance to ask better questions, to find those answers to those questions you might never have thought to ask, and I'll give a couple of tangible examples just in a moment. But those questions need to span inside and outside of the workplace. And I think this is more the case than ever because I love the life lessons that came off the back of COVID. We touched upon some of these the first time around.

Graeme Tennick: 7:04

But we're living in a world there now which is so vastly different, whereby hours and place of work are flexible. Now, on first glance you think that's great. But with flexibility comes a little bit less control sometimes. So because you've got flexibility in your hours, people might log on at six, do a few hours, go and do the school run, come back. Do a few more hours go from the afternoon, come back. Do a few hours go and do the school run, come back. Do a few more hours go from the afternoon, come back. Do a few more hours. Kids bed, do an hour or so, and all of a sudden you start clocking those hours up. You end up doing more hours than what you did when you actually kind of had fixed hours. I won't go into the timesheet settings yet. Maybe later we can do that a little bit more.

Graeme Tennick: 7:41

But also the place, place of work. It's blurred in terms of whether work is a fixed office, whether it's at home, and what works. One might not work for another, but in order to have a look at the numbers, it's a case of right. Okay, what are the business numbers telling you to live and lead a better life inside and outside of work? And again, another nugget which Paul Dunn shared with me when I said I want to leave behind a legacy for which myself, my family and my friends and everybody who connects with me was proud of and again I spoke about this briefly on the last recording he said why don't you want to live a legacy and leave behind a legacy? And I was like that's fascinating. I should be living that legacy. Then I should be enjoying the journey, embracing the journey rather than fixating on a destination. And this again comes back full circle humanizing your numbers. It's like, well, the numbers are going to give you the direction, to ask the better questions, make better decisions, achieve better outcomes, to live and lead a better life inside and outside the work. And that's where, for me, the term humanizing numbers is more important than ever in such a noisy world.

Graeme Tennick: 9:17

Yeah, um, I was actually a little story. I've got many stories here, doug, so I'll share one or two. Um, we're up in the isla of Skye at the weekend with one of my best friends and his wife and we went for a run. Have you been to the Isle of Skye, doug, at all, or not? Oh, it was fantastic. Well, we went for a run near Ploughton, so just the other side. We went for a run. It was rather hillyilly.

Graeme Tennick: 9:44

I was just chatting to my mate, phil, and I said it's interesting how in life let's use the health scenario how in life let's say, for example, you're in pain in some shape or form. You go to the doctors, they give you a tablet. All of a sudden, the pain goes away. It's, oh amazing. All of a sudden, you change your life. You drink more water, you're constantly getting bad heads. The bad head stops. I said, oh, okay, amazing, what do you do? You stop. Then the problem returns and it's just like it's a frustration of mine.

Graeme Tennick: 10:15

There were so many life lessons in COVID that were learned, but now people are going back to I say not some people, not everybody, but there are people going back as if that never actually happened, and I actually think they're half right and half wrong, because the delicate balance that I feel like we are at in the profession and in the business world itself is one whereby we should go back to the foundations upon which successful business have been built on for generations beforehand, but we should use COVID and technology and the change over that period since then to elevate that. And I'll give you an example in terms of which feeds back your example in terms of how people work, that flexibility around work is amazing and that trust should stay, but it should stay within an infrastructure which suits the business and the people that are part of the business. It's got to be a shared exercise with regards to it. Now, in order to do that, you need to behave differently with your team, because if your team aren't all in the office, you cannot have that clarity you maybe once did have as easily as you once did have, because they're not sat up with you in a room to say look, guys, this is the main thing we want to achieve X. So you're going to have to deliver it in a different way. You're also going to have to manage and support your team in different ways, but also ask them for their advice and their engagement in different ways.

Graeme Tennick: 11:36

If you do that, the flexibility I spoke of there before can achieve such huge things. If we use a tangible example of particularly a lot of countries in Scandinavia, whereby they're working four-day weeks, if you have a look at their health stats, their health stats are absolutely incredible, the productivity absolutely brilliant. It just goes to show what you could maybe achieve in four days compared to five. So if we can achieve that little bit more flexibility, you might get a little bit more out to the other side of things. So you actually it's a circle just closing the circle but you wouldn't have previously had the technology to facilitate that way of working, whereas now we can do that. It's just a case of adjusting. But if we go back to how we were and take no lessons, you're going to miss all the opportunities sat right in front of us and, sadly, you're going to be out of business before long. Thank you.

Graeme Tennick: 13:30

Thank you, yeah. So there's a step before all of this where I think it's very clear and we would would done this when we'd last spoke, but again, this has evolved a little bit. So, back in our 10th business birthday in 2022, we had went through the exercise in terms of establishing what our vision was going to be, what our values was going to be, what our purpose was going to be. We were very clear. We did it as a team exercise. We went through multiple steps, but vision, values, purpose. Now, with a vision, people were clear of the direction we were heading in, the values we stood by and the purpose in terms of our existence. Now we agreed that as a team, we shared that with clients, we shared that with friends, we shared it with family and we even said this is the impact we are seeking to make and, off the back of that, we consolidated all of that into what I consider our 360 vision, which is still highly embedded in our firm today, and there's a clear order to this as well.

Graeme Tennick: 14:28

So, number one priority in our business is to make our lives better, and it sounds selfish, but I'm going to say it to make our lives better. The second priority is to make our clients' lives better. The third priority is to make the world a better place. And I'll explain those in a little bit more detail, because the first one I struggled with for quite a while. I remember even, I want to say, in my early 20s pre-kids, whenever you get on the plane, have your rocks and mass first, and everyone just sort of thought, well, if I've got a loved one or a child, I'm always going to do their rocks and mass first. Of course you would do that's the responsible thing to do. To do anything other than that is just selfish. Then I actually realised the logic behind it and I applied the same logic in business. So what I see is our number one priority of making our lives better, and that's my life, the team's life, everybody internally first and I'll talk to you about some of the practical aspects we've done around this since then, because those wouldn't have been on the first recording has been around understanding, okay, what matters most to us inside and outside of work.

Graeme Tennick: 15:32

If we are achieving that, we can then support clients. It's not an either or it's like a spine, but unless we are fit, healthy, profitable, productive and all of those areas, we cannot possibly support our clients in the long term. We might be able to do it in the short term, but if we put clients ahead of us, we kind of possibly support our clients in the long term. We might be able to do it in the short term, but if we put clients ahead of us we ain't going to be around for very long. The second part is to support clients, because naturally, without any clients, you cannot support us as a business, us as a team. So we've got to have that bit there, but it's got to work both ways and it's got to work in our favour. That just doesn't work.

Graeme Tennick: 16:07

And the third bit making the world a better place. We can very easily greenwash things and say, yeah, we donate money to this charity, we donate time here, this, that and the other, but ultimately, unless we have a happy, healthy business and personal life, unless we have happy, healthy clients, we ain't ever going to be able to do that, because you kind of give with an empty pot and I think that perception which you were saying before of clients the client isn't always right. If they were always right, they probably wouldn't need an accountant. That's the first thing I would say, but also the idea of always seeking out and demonstrating how you're making the world a better place at the cost of everything else is actually counterproductive. And sadly it's seeing people going down paths to say, look, it's brilliant what you're doing, but you're not a philanthropist, so why are you doing that?

Graeme Tennick: 16:57

But also another thing which I'm seeing you're assessing your performance against the expectations of others. So when you're doing that, what about your expectations? What's important to you? It's not about me we always speak internally of. We want to try and help everybody we work alongside be the best version of themselves. It's not about comparing them to that person or that person. Be the best version of yourself and that's a domino impact. You're a better person for everybody else around you.

Doug Aitken: 17:25

You, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you you you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you.

Graeme Tennick: 19:11

Thank you, yeah. So, first of all, in terms of the niche, we did continue to struggle. So, again, I'm not going to say we woke up one day and said that's it. We chose niches and I can go through some of those there now trade and trade-related businesses, service-based businesses we thought e-commerce for a little while but didn't actually kind of go down that route.

Graeme Tennick: 19:32

The bit which and again I touched upon this previously the first thing I would give just advice to anybody in terms of niche decide who you do not want to be. It's a very clear. So, for example and again this is going to sound bad, but I'm going to say it we don't support charities. We do support charities, donations and time, but we don't do accounts for charities. The reason why we don't is because we don't have enough volume of work to maintain the expertise to deliver on it.

Graeme Tennick: 20:00

If we did, I might think differently, but we just don't have that big a pool where we've got 20, 30, 40 charities whereby I can have some of the dedicated expertise to deliver it. So it's a bit like me doing e-commerce without the expertise to do e-commerce businesses. I wouldn't do that. I don't feel guilty about it, I'm just honest. But I signpost people to another firm where they do do charities. So what we found with our niche is we're trying too hard, is the honest answer, because, again, we're following the trends of so many other people and you know, everybody's got an opinion on this.

Graeme Tennick: 20:31

I'm not saying I'm right, somebody else is wrong, everything is subject to challenge. But what I can speak of is what we've done and what's worked. Now and again, ainsley damery and steve brigginshaw, of clarity, um, they've spoke this in depth and I know steve sorry for ainsley, this was was their niche as well. Our niche is more mindset focused. So there's industries, typically, which we specialize in, which is largely the service-based industries that's the biggest one for us which will be recruitment companies, it will be marketing companies, it will be HR companies, all those ones in the service, knowledge-based theme side of things. Those are the ones where we have the huge volume. But then also there's other strands of things where we've got R&D companies, but not R&D companies where they do R&D claims, but whereby they might be creating this amazing thing which goes into space or creating this amazing thing which goes into a car, like really creative industries, industries, but it's a knowledge-based industry. So it's growth, mindset, knowledge-based businesses where we really resonate, and and that that's what I'd say in terms of that and it just would just click, because when we're of the same mindset makes the job so much more enjoyable. It's just absolutely brilliant, it's just brilliant. And on a side note, oh yeah, extremely and again story in coming. It was extremely and again story incoming. It was January 2024. Yeah, january 2024 slash February 2024.

Graeme Tennick: 22:39

I went away skiing. Skiing seems to cost a lot of money these days when I come back to what happens next. So I came back and we lost relatively quickly about £50,000 worth of work, annual work and I was like, oh right, okay, but it highlighted something I already knew, insofar as those clients were after a compliance-based service and the relationship was lacking. It was a transaction. In their opinion, it wasn't a relationship and it wasn't for the one to try. Everything was amicable, so we passed the work on. We left on good terms. Everything was great in terms of that. But it emphasized the point where it's like we are in the different mindset side of things now, because whilst we're on a growth mindset, we are very clear to say we are a relationship-led business, we're not a transaction one. So if somebody wants to come and just save tax, we are not the accountant for them, because that's not a relationship, that's a commodity. We are not a commodities-based business, that's not our area of the market. So once we start assigning traits to these clients leaving, we start recognizing where the relationships were not as strong as we'd otherwise like them. They might be good, but if somebody else comes along and says, oh, we'll do it £100 a month cheaper, they'll be gone Because for them this is a ticky box exercise.

Graeme Tennick: 23:57

In light of that, we tweaked our packages. We changed our wording, addressed our marketing and sales techniques and everything else around that, which meant we could very quickly adapt and understand when it was the right fit and when it wasn't so. Just for example, our average fee for limited company accounts, company tax return, everything else like that, was about £150 2020, 2021, excluding VAT per month. That is. So £150 excluding VAT per month, for pretty much started goes upwards, obviously. Including VAT per month, for pretty much started goes upwards, obviously, limited company accounts, company tax term, personal tax term. Now our average is near our 500. Now again, it's such a big jump. We've got to give value to justify that and we didn't just uplift the fee and just say, oh well, just people will deal with it.

Graeme Tennick: 24:48

There's been multiple stepping stones put in place to make sure the service we deliver is very different to what we used to. So it's completely different. It was a compliance based service back then. It is so far away from that now. But it also isn't because again people get scared of this and say, oh, you must be doing advisory for all these clients. It's not like we're building out growth plans, it's not like we're fulfilling fractional finance director positions None of that. It's just a case of there's a structure which gives a light I always say like fairy dust of advisory. So it takes advisory to another level.

Graeme Tennick: 25:21

And the way I describe this because I did a bit of research among accountants just over a year ago and I'd set the accountants as look, can you please define for me what you consider compliance to be and what you consider advisory to be? And of those people I asked, there was only two people where they could clearly define it and I thought this might be the case. But if we kind of define what advisory is, how the heck can we start doing this for our clients? My very simplistic definition, in my opinion, is compliance is fulfilling the legal and statutory obligations for which a business owner has no choice other than to fulfill, and the timescales are dictated by the laws and regulations around. Those are dictated by the laws and regulations around those. Advisory is work outside of this where a client has a choice as to whether they engage with you, obviously in terms of it, and a choice around timing. It's all choice-led. That's the difference between those Once we really embrace that aspect and added value in that space.

Graeme Tennick: 26:28

It allowed us to offer packages, and actually not all of our packages start at £5 a month. They don't. We have ones beneath then, but actually the average is pushing that. Now. Once we started hitting that space, we elevated the relationship, we humanized the numbers even more, we made the sort of impact where the clients felt like they were adding value, and we're still transitioning through things, things. So again, it's not all plain smooth, not all plain sale. I don't pretend it is, but once we transition at that point and got the team fully on board with it and I'll come back to behind us a little bit later give with that focus in terms of the niche.

Graeme Tennick: 27:13

So it's evolving the onboarding process. So I would start with saying that. But we ask our clients sorry, ask our prospects three very important questions. At the start we say can you please tell me what does success look like to you personally, 12 months to a day? Can you please tell me what does success look like to you in business 12 months to a day? And can you please tell me how this relationship would be considered a success 12 months to a day, business owner and accountant? And how will you measure the impact?

Graeme Tennick: 27:44

Once we have that I've interrogated the numbers, I've understood them a little bit we can then see can we make an impact which justifies their investment in us? If we can't, we don't quote and signpost them elsewhere. Three simple questions. Absolutely not. They're not, but these are the sort of questions where I don't profess to be anything special with these questions. If we go back to generations beforehand and how the accountancy profession was actually built and once it might not have been structured so much, these sort of questions were just on the tip of the tongue. Case of hey, doug, yeah, I'd love to work with you. Like you say have you got any holidays planned for the next year? I say oh see, you've got a wedding ring on there. Your wife's called us. Oh, brilliant. Oh it's an anniversary. Oh, amazing, what you've got planned. All this would just be second nature on the personal side of things. Tell us about the business, tell us about what you're trying to do Recruitment, expansion, all these. Tell us about that. And then you'd say tell us about what's led you to us. What are you trying to achieve? How can we help you get there? But those bits are. I'm not going to blame COVID for this, because I hear people referring back to just COVID and blaming it for things which I don't think is justified. I feel like those bits of the support have gradually been nurtured out as generations have kind of passed on. As technologies come in, as skill sets have changed, all those bits went. That three-part question isn't something, like I say, which is new, isn't something which requires a bit of technology. But if we can bring those bits back to what we once had, elevate that with what we now have the potential of doing, we can make a phenomenal impact. Otherwise, the accountancy industry is dying as we know it and it'll be dead before you know it. It'll be a completely different profession within 10 years max, if not even less, if we don't make some fundamental changes now.

Graeme Tennick: 30:01

I think there's multiple reasons. I mean, I feel really sorry for the accountancy profession. I really do Because we used to let's start with the 360 vision I shared before. We used to be able to generate profits, respect, within reasonable timeframes a lot easier than what we can't do there now. If you think about what the profession used to be and how it was perceived from the outside, I think reputation was better because there wasn't reliance on software, whereas now there's a great line between what does the software do, what does the accountant do Fees-wise a lot of the time and again I'm well for going away from this, but fees were charged based on time, often without challenge, and the margins.

Graeme Tennick: 30:43

The stereotypical model used to be about a 33% margin. The stereotypical model used to be about a 33% margin, so it was a brilliant industry to be part of. Now we are almost at times, offering unlimited support across unlimited timeframes. I don't always appreciate it, because there's a gray line between what accountants do and what accountants are capable of and what they should be charging for, which feeds back to where technology is coming in, and we've commoditized it to the point whereby, if we do what everybody else is doing, because the market is now a global one, you could quite easily lose your local newspaper takeaway place to an online accountancy firm elsewhere in the country, and justifiably so, because if that accountancy firm is offering the same as what another firm online is, another firm online can do it cheaper. Why wouldn't they move? If you were the business, you would do the same thing. But because of those aspects, I think it's never been so challenging. If we also look at a couple of other aspects as well, the education system is dated. It's completely out of date, and I'm talking from school to professional exams and I'm ACC and I think ACC are doing some amazing things, but I still think it's a long way to go.

Graeme Tennick: 31:53

The personal skill set which allowed you to have that relationship which I spoke of there before is not naturally embedded in people the way it once was, because, just using an example, if more people are working from home, they'll have less engagement. If people are hidden more behind an email or a bit of software, they'll have less engagement. If people are hidden more behind an email or a bit of software, they'll have less engagement. So that skill set coming through that education, which a lot of people just got by second nature, by way of playing out with friends on weekends, not having mobile devices, all those sort of things has been eroded away. So the technology bit there's a new skill set coming in, but technology, everybody's got access to that technology. What about the personal aspects? So that bit then needs to come in.

Graeme Tennick: 32:32

The other part of this and there's multiple things at play here and it goes back to what I'd said what we did back in 2022, is because of the battles people have got with time, money and freedom with regards to all this, they're constantly firefighting in terms of all these bits. In the thick of things, they are losing their vision, values and their purpose by not being clear with regards to their vision, their values and their purpose. That will mean they will struggle to attract and retain clients and team members, so it only adds to the problems they've already got. So it's like a vicious circle. It's a really, really difficult one to get out of, but if we're staying that, it's literally a circle to the bottom. Well, flipping the narrative to a more constructive, less positive side. I think it's important to give this balance.

Graeme Tennick: 34:07

I'll start with an example pre the last record, which I think I briefly touched upon the last recording and I have been part of those accountancy events where you come back feeling like being part of a cult. It's like, right, okay, guys, we're going to use all this software. They start with a bump done and the team are like what the flaming heck Doesn't work. Shock, horror. You learn your lesson and then start doing it better.

Graeme Tennick: 34:35

When I came back from Brisbane for the accountants boot camp back in 2023, I came back a lot more toned down compared with having been at an accountancy event, but I did come back and I said, right, okay, guys, I've got all these ideas, as you do have. But I said I would like to bring the ethos of Disney into the firm. And they were like what the flaming heck, I'd stop. I'm saying I don't even bloody like Disney. And I said, well, what I mean is I want clients to feel like we belong and they belong together, and I want people to have that feeling. If you've been to Disney either Euro or the full Disney so you know what the feeling's like when you walk into the park and you just like you feel like nothing else matters. You're in a place where you belong, with such a warm, fuzzy feeling and just like your dreams are coming true, pretty much in terms of even as a child or an adult. It's just like seeing the look on my kids face. It's just like, yeah, it's just incredible, it is, it's magical. I was like I want to do that here.

Graeme Tennick: 35:33

So I had a bit of a chat and they said well, first of all, can we get rid of the idea of the Disney project? I said absolutely. So we renamed it, the sense of belonging project, which at the time we thought was more unfitting. And then we started project mapping it out. So a project mapped it out. It kind of said, right, okay, what does this mean? Going back to 360 vision to make our lives better, make clients better, make the world a better place. What does this mean in terms of sense of belonging? And it starts with asking better questions to find answers. Build off the back of that. So we started making some changes.

Graeme Tennick: 36:05

But I then fell into the trap of making some changes which I thought were the right changes to make, some of which were right, which were wrong. So the ones which were right, I did, but maybe the whole team didn't do and I was just putting like little bits as we went along just to put all this together, and I guess it was project managed to an extent, but it was largely project managed by me To the point where I was looking at things and saying, well, why is this not happening? And the team would rightly call me out and say, well, you said we're going to do this and we're doing this, but then you're moving on to something else which isn't a contradiction to that. But we haven't focused enough on that to see it all the way through. So I was like, right, okay, that's a fair point and I'll be honest, you know what it is. I genuinely only think we've really started nailing this over the past and this is a good time for this podcast over the past six weeks, and what basically happened was I'm doing the strategic coach program with Dan Sullivan. Well, it's Dan Sullivan's program. It's not him specifically doing it, but it's allowed me to restructure my approach with regards to change when it comes to strategy.

Graeme Tennick: 37:09

So we spent the vast part of last year making me redundant from the business, so the business can largely run without me this year. It's a case of right. We need to scale this, but we need to refine the bits which we started, which comes back to what we've got behind us. So, when I talk to the 360 impact, it was like, well, we speak with 360 impacts, we speak about it on our newsletter, but what else do we really do? So we did agree them, we agreed them as a team in terms of what our impacts were going to be for us and for clients. We tracked them on the board, but I was like I feel like we need something a little bit more.

Graeme Tennick: 37:42

So, from a team perspective, we have just recently introduced and again, this may work. It may not work. I am optimistic it will work because the whole team's been involved we have introduced an incentivization scheme. Now that incentivization scheme is linked to the impacts we make for clients and the business, but it starts with the business. So, with a business perspective, if we hit certain financial metrics, the team gets rewards, rewards which matter to them. Brilliant, we're starting to make the impact and they're starting to see it. There's a structure in terms of what needs to be hit and how it's going to be done Great.

Graeme Tennick: 38:16

But this comes off the back of having done a similar exercise back in well, between 2019 and 2021, whereby I made a huge mistake and I made the mistake of having individual targets. Now again, I'm not saying this is right or wrong, I'm just saying this is what worked for us. But by having individual targets it encouraged individual traits whereby people were looking more at themselves rather than others, and that did lead to us restructuring, like you said, before, going down to 10 staff. Our targets now are firm wide, so everybody gets the same, and if the firm hits a target, you win, if it doesn't, you don't. It's as simple as that. There's not a route for people to kind of get a little bit more than somebody else, because that for me is the annual appraisals. So like that's the differentiation we have.

Graeme Tennick: 39:02

Also from an incentivization perspective and because the talks are quite lofty and but people potentially get additional payments, um, or benefits is, say, on a quarterly basis. The additional aspect is client impact. So if we make a client impact, that might be a client impact card, so this is our client impact. So if we make a client impact, that might be a client impact card. So this is our client impact wall, behind which I'll tell you a bit more about in a minute. If we get a client impact card filled in, so the client fills it in. I'll tell you about the format in a second. If they fill that in, it goes on the wall.

Graeme Tennick: 39:30

If we get a referral from a client or a Google testimonial, then it will also track meetings as well the person and we'll also track meetings as well the person and this isn't an individual one, and the reason I want this an individual one is because it provides a bit of fun, but it's not to the cost of a client, so it doesn't encourage bad behaviors. The person each month that is top in terms of generating the most client impacts also gets an incentive. But by supporting clients, it supports a business, supports the financials In terms of the world impacts those again, that's worked quite well. We'll probably nail that one the best, because, subject to our achievements with regards to certain operational aspects, feeds into us giving back to other people as we give to other charities. In terms of that, and I feel like the structure, we've got around that and the platform and that is now tracked on a weekly basis. It is initially by me, but also by other people. In renamed soon the Sense of Belonging project.

Graeme Tennick: 40:39

We have also changed the environment we operate in because we want to create an environment where we feel like, when prospects and clients can. So this room I won't make people feel dizzy by rotating my camera, but this room people come in and say it feels like a therapy room. I said, well, it is to a certain extent. So we've got a nice sofa here, a nice sofa there, lovely table here, we've got an interactive TV here, we've got the client impact wall here and on the client impact cards I said we'll come back to this.

Graeme Tennick: 41:06

Clients handwrite the impact we've made with regards to time, money and freedom. They will also say how it made them feel. They'll tell us what's next and they assign it. The team member assigns it. Then we just put a picture in the corner. We've got our firm impact wall around the corner there. We've got a trail map and everything we've been up to there. So that's around there. And then our world impact is downstairs, so it's tracked down there. So by having the environmental perspective and the accountability piece with regards to everything we're doing and everything which kind of filled us through, there was a real stringent accountability piece with clear steps in place across the air to give everybody the platform to grow and be better. And that's the way I feel it. We've closed the loop a lot more and added that structure which we previously lacked, and there's a lot in there. So I'll appreciate uh for digesting that, but I just about up Yep, yep, yep.

Graeme Tennick: 42:27

Oh yes, Yep.

Doug Aitken: 42:35

Yep.

Graeme Tennick: 42:44

Yep, yep, yeah, completely. But what we did is we didn't overcomplicate the process. So, going back to those three questions I said before, we ask prospects, we ask our team members exactly the same questions. So we ask and again it's just a slightly different question, but it's kind of like okay, what does success look like to you personally 12 months a day? There might be a mortgage renewal or something. I want to move house or something like that.

Graeme Tennick: 43:06

I either want to get fitter and again, it's great to get that relationship a little bit closer. Let's say, okay, what does success look like to you working once a day? What is that? Do you want to be promoted? Do you want to look after that client? Do you want to do different job roles? Again, let's get closer.

Graeme Tennick: 43:20

Then the third customer right, how would this relationship be a success, you and I working together, and how will you measure that impact? And I say, well, if you'd spend a bit more time with us on this, I'd feel a bit more comfortable, or could I actually go to this event or could. And it's like, absolutely, and obviously, and obviously I've got three heads of service and they've also got shares in the business as well, so they're doing this with the team members, but I'm then doing this with them. So by doing that, if you just give somebody else the platform to define what success looks like to them and support them, they've already helped shape the vision, values, purpose and are living and breathing that because it's embedded within the firm which they ultimately contribute towards. It's not forced upon them. They are given the platform to speak up and feel comfortable speaking up to create the environment and goals which matter most to them and which isn't framed from my perspective, and then you've got the opportunity to support them. And again you might say, well, yeah, well, what happens if they say, well, yeah, I want to be on a hundred grand a year, have a really expensive company, car, this, that, and the other People say, well, I don't feel comfortable with that.

Graeme Tennick: 44:20

It's a similar thing with the advisory conversation. People say, well, I don't feel comfortable having a conversation I might not know the answer to. I say, yeah, but that can happen with tax or anything. And if anything, you just be honest and say that's a great question, I'll have to come back to you, I'll have to find out out. And with a team member, if they say that, say that's amazing, that's fantastic.

Graeme Tennick: 44:38

You can, straight away, if it's kind of out of the realms of realism, you can just kind of say, well, with respect, that's not realistically going to happen in 12 months, is it? But you can also flip that out of the bank and say that's amazing. I'd love to help you achieve that. How best can you help the business get to a level whereby the business could support you in living that life? And then all of a sudden, there it's like oh, it's like well, because it's not like I'm. I'm not sat here with a sack sack of presidency, I'm just going to kind of dip ones out.

Graeme Tennick: 45:07

How do you see your role changing? Because, again, based on where you are, then I was, something's gonna have to change if you're going to kind of go from that to that. Because if you thought you'd be paid that already, you would have already left. Um, so how is that going to change?

Graeme Tennick: 45:20

And the nice thing is, most people, when they're embedded in the values, the vision and the purpose and see where it's going to go and where they can fit within, they're already on board. Even if they don't necessarily get what the idea you want now, or somebody else is paying, it's like they can see where it's going to go, where they will be able to get that, because they're bought in. But yeah, just ask your team members the same questions, get the engagement. If they're not engaged with you, that's a warning sign because they might already be looking. Yeah, just ask them simple, better questions and be comfortable. You might not know the answers or be able to give them something straight back, but if you don't flip them out of the back and see if they can guide you because there might be opportunities they are seeing in your business which you have not previously considered- you.

Graeme Tennick: 47:08

Thank you. The first thing I would say and again there's a consistent theme with many aspects here is you've got to build it into the structure, Because accountants are often, or are perceived as often, being very black or white in terms of that and the way we are trained. We are logic first, emotion second, Whereas people are emotions first, logic second, and we need to flip the now around to try and get that bit right. So, with that in mind, to try and train that aspect, let's build on the skill set and the comfort which people are already used to. So you see, build it into the structure. So if it's a prospect or if it's an appraisal or if it's something. So again, we ask those same three questions every year to our clients once they're on board, Build it into the structure to make sure it's part of the meeting framework. That's an absolute starting point because if it's there, people will historically go through and actually say they've done it or say they haven't done it. It's something to go back and say well, what happened? The next thing to do from a training perspective is to go through the exercise, a bit like what we've just done there before, and say look, this is how I'd like you to ask the question and then what you do is you can go through the process and say, okay, what do you think? And get them to do I don't like the term role play, but do role play with you Then you can also say, right, okay, what's your reservations? What's going to mean this doesn't work for you and your clients? Tell me and this is something that came off the back of the Chris Voss book Never Split the Difference and the accusation audit.

Graeme Tennick: 48:40

Make it the absolute worst scenario you possibly can. There's a story he shared at the very start whereby he was a lecturer and he highlights two scenarios and he said, if he'd went in with scenario one I can't remember the very specifics, but it was almost like a role play scenario and he said, if he just went and said who wants to be part of this role-play on the stage, lecture or theatre? He said we've got nobody. But he said, look, we're going to do an exercise now which is going to be scary, it's going to blow your mind and you're going to feel uncomfortable with it and I'm going to ask people to be part of it. But for those people that say yes, you will be on such another level in terms of the impact it make, the less you take away compared to those that don't who would like to join me on stage, and you just flip the narrative. So it's like, from that perspective, you, you overcome the obstacles by addressing the obstacles.

Graeme Tennick: 49:31

First thing, make it the absolute worst case scenario you can possibly imagine. Give them the framework, comfort and confidence around that to address it, Then go forth. But then when you do that, so you've done all the training you've built in the structure have them sit in meetings where you do it, have yourself sit in meetings where they do it. It's a similar process to what you would do with anything else for the set of accounts or a tax return. Do the same thing again, but then track it and incentivize them, Because, again, that's why we've got the meetings aspect downstairs. Encourage people to have face-to-face meetings wherever possible. Encourage people to ask these sort of questions, Track it on a regimental basis, be it weekly, monthly, quarterly, whatever works.

Graeme Tennick: 50:13

Do it, do it, do it. Otherwise you'll see it, do it, do it, do it. Otherwise you'll see it and it'll just be forgotten. It's like, yeah, well, he said that idea, he didn't mean it, but obviously he's onto something else now not something different, just something else. But then when you do it as well, stop and let it go. Stop and let it go and let it rest because a habit, as James Clear says I can't give a specific number, but it takes multiple occasions of doing it and until that time kicks in, it's going to stop. It's going to be like that extra water you drink to get rid of those bad heads. You stop drinking, it comes back. It's just the problem with just resurface it's got to be so embedded in that it doesn't get missed.

Graeme Tennick: 51:09

So I think there's multiple layers to this this. I think you've got a layer whereby technology is going to mean we can largely automate the compliance aspect of what we currently do for clients, which is only going to mean it's a race to the bottom cost-wise or it's all about efficiencies, but it's going to be a commoditized space where, sadly, those people that kind of make the finances pay are going to disappear. That can't make the finances pay are going to disappear either just stop trading, sell out or something in between. I think you've then got the top end side of things, where you've got the and this has been around for a while the fractional finance officer role, Not quite an FD, but it's those ones whereby they need a firm, and again, this could be any size, but it could be big. Four could be a firm of our size. We need a fractional finance officer in post to assist them on an ad hoc or regular basis until the point they recruit a full-time finance director, or perhaps permanently, if they're never going to get to the stage where they need that.

Graeme Tennick: 52:18

You've then got the bits in between. Now, the bits in between. This is where there's going to be a real bun fight for making sure we do what we possibly can to ensure we as an industry, decommoditise that as much as possible to elevate the values and the difference we as individuals in our firm can demonstrate. Now, in that position, there we have to add that little sprinkling, in my opinion, of advisory, and it's that little sprinkling of something where the business owner has choice with regards to engaging on time and to make a difference which matters most to them. If we do that, it will create a platform for the profession to build on what it once had and what it's now capable of with the technology it has access to and the skills which are there thereabouts available. And again, it might technology it has access to and the skills which are there thereabouts available. And again, it might take time to get some of those skills back. And I'll just one thing I'll come on the skills in a second to find our place within that, to continue making a difference in ways which matter to clients, which they value. Now the bit which the skills I was just going to come back to for a second. This will mean we're going to have to change the narrative a little bit in terms of the questions we ask, the impact we make and how we support our clients to make sure it's not a compliance-led service. And that will also come in via the skills side of things.

Graeme Tennick: 53:25

So people might think well, with the schooling system and everything else like that, the accounting professions when will we have the skill sets to deliver what sounds like an absolutely brilliant area? Well, what I would say is we need to start fishing in different ponds, we need to start looking in different places. So, the stereotypical route of getting somebody who's got an accountancy degree I'm not saying it's dead and buried, because you're going to get some great stuff down that route but why don't you try somewhere where they have the personal skill sets the communication skills which you wouldn't otherwise look. So give you a tangible example I've recruited some of my local pub. She had a degree wasn't an accountancy degree, but she was brilliant in terms of engaging with people. I recruited somebody from a care home who looked after my grandma when she was still here, God bless her. And she had the empathy side of things and the skill set to be calm in any situation but, again, engage with people in such stressful and and calm scenarios, which is amazing. You can bring the skill sets in for the more stereotypical ones associated with the profession, but those softer skill sets are readily available and they are out there.

Graeme Tennick: 54:25

There are people screaming out for an opportunity, but we must support them when they come in. But also we must get two very important messages out there if we are going to exist in any shape or form and facilitate a future for ourselves. The first message is to clients. We must educate clients as to what the profession is, what the profession is capable of and why they should really engage with us where technology is not currently because again, we don't know where technology is going currently in a position to deliver on.

Graeme Tennick: 54:56

The second thing we must do we must continue to educate and drive forward why the accounting profession is an absolutely incredible place to be and the future potential that is there for any person joining the profession. Now, like I say, that is going to take time, but people need to feel like they are connected to it. They see the potential within it and see the impact they can make, to feel like it all of a sudden becomes an attractive place to be. But if we can do those two aspects and continue with the drive forward which I'm super, super passionate about, there is a very, very positive future ahead, at least in the short to medium term, my opinion. But we've got to really drive that narrative to get the right people in the firm and get the right people engaged with the firm to have a future. I'd love that. Thank you so much, Doug, and thank you everybody for listening