Paul Shrimpling : 0:05

Welcome to the Humanize the Numbers podcast series. Leaders, managers, and owners of ambitious accounting firms sharing insights, successes, and issues that will challenge you and connect you and your firm to the ways and means of transforming your firm's results.

Caroline Carter: 0:22

So we're running this business, it was a massive food, but with the three and a half thousand Sunday dinners on a Sunday, we had you know 35 members of staff, it was huge. But we had an accountant. The accountant never wanted to speak to us. If we rang them, you know, they were too busy to take the call. You might eventually get a call back two or three weeks later, didn't understand VAT, didn't understand bookkeeping, didn't understand, and they were so expensive. But now looking back, I'm like, actually, we got a really good deal for what they were giving us. But as a small business owner, you think, wow, it's super expensive, and you don't see the value.

Douglas Aitken: 0:59

How does a formal diagnosis of ADHD and OCD affect your ability to run an accounting firm? In this podcast with Caroline Carter of Carter Clear, you'll hear how that diagnosis allowed her to make sense of the world. Let's go with that podcast now.

Caroline Carter: 1:19

Morning to I'm Caroline from Carter Clear Accounting. Um I run a very small accountancy practice based up in Warrington in Cheshire. We focus on helping small businesses. Most of our clients have a turnover of less than two million. We do work with some large kind of corporate bodies like the NHS and huge logistics company on a contract basis, but that's more of a kind of skill set where I go out on day and I do a bit of project work with them. Um it's kind of legacy hangover from my career days when I was employed. Um, but yeah, that's we're a very small team, very small practice.

Douglas Aitken: 2:00

Fab. Give us an idea, uh, some numbers, Caroline, if you can. How many people do you have?

Caroline Carter: 2:05

Um the we have five members on the team, um, including myself. Um we have two trainee bookkeepers, um, a qualified bookkeeper, and then myself and another qualified accountant.

Douglas Aitken: 2:19

Fab. Okay. Um and when did you set up the business?

Caroline Carter: 2:26

Oh I've been licensed since 2014. Um, but I used to always do it on the side. It's kind of just alongside my day job. Uh-huh. Which was? Yeah, well I I worked in management accounting. I've had a massive and hugely varied career. I didn't really start working in accounts until tw 2011.

Douglas Aitken: 2:49

Okay.

Caroline Carter: 2:50

Um just because mainly because I couldn't get anybody to give me the opportunity to to try. Um I think they see single mum and they they worry about the time constraints that you're gonna have. Um and that's really important to me now in Carter Clear that we've got mums who work for us who have a really flexible, I mean hugely flexible flexible approach to work. Um but yeah, no, it was always along the side. I had my license along the side of my day job. Um and then it was during COVID in 2020, uh, all over Facebook. At the time I was an accountant electorer. Um and all over Facebook, people like, oh my gosh, I don't know what to do. Um, what do I do with this S-E-I-S-S? What's what's furlough? Um so I was running like a Facebook live once or twice a week. We're just helping people. Um, and at that stage, June 2020, I had 13 clients and a full-time job. Um and yeah, we've just grown from there. I incorporated the business in March 2021. So yeah, we've been going for 11 years in total. Been licensed for 11 years, fab. But only limited for four.

Douglas Aitken: 4:02

Good stuff. Okay, I'll dive into your career um a little bit more in a moment, Caroline. But we always ask our podcast guests early on about our core purpose, which is to humanize the numbers. Um, just give me a feel for what you get from that. What does that mean to you? Humanize the numbers.

Caroline Carter: 4:22

Numbers are how I make sense of the world. Um, they tend to bring me like this this clearness, this focus, um, and numbers don't judge you, numbers don't have an opinion, they don't have a, you know, there are obviously obviously an outcome, a numerical outcome, but they don't have they don't judge you. So I've managed my life in numbers for over a decade. Um so I was diagnosed with ADHD and OCD um many, many years ago. Um, and as part of managing that diagnosis, I started tracking numbers. I've got, I can tell you what my step count is for every day going back to March 2014. Um, how many calories I've eaten on most of the days. I'm not as rigid as I once was. Um, I used to be big into running ultramarathons, I've done long distance swimming, triathlons, all of that's on spreadsheets. I can tell you my pace, my heart rate, the distance. Um, so I've got 11 years of data going back to 2014, and even on the bad days, knowing you've overeaten, you'd be like, You've hit three and a half thousand calories, and you're like, whoops. Um, or I've skipped a training run, I still log it. So for me, numbers don't lie, they kind of show the truth, um, and they don't judge you. And I think once you track the numbers, you can kind of remove the the shame. Um, all my personal findances are run on a cash book version of zero, and so I can tell you what mine and my husband's net equity net equity is. Um and it might sound unusual, um, but for me it's how I understand the world. And part of that comes from that lady HD and OCD. Um, but numbers give me um structure and control when I need it most. So when things are veering off track in life, I if I kind of revert back to those tracking numbers measures that I've put in place to control my life, um, it kind of brings it back round. Numbers don't control me as much as they once did, and step away now. If I don't fill in my calories for three months, I I'm not that fussed. Um whereas there was a stage where it would be, you know, if I'd missed it for a week or two, I'd be it would be the disaster and like the worst thing that could happen. Um but I've managed I've managed that. Um I'd still have around myself.

Douglas Aitken: 6:42

Yeah, but how did it show up before pre-diagnosis, Caroline?

Caroline Carter: 6:52

I do I like I run things a million things at once. Um so I'm very task-oriented. Um and inside the business we have loads of processes and workflows and everything has like steps and videos and instructions and it's probably too much. It's uh if for somebody coming into the business who's already qualified, it would be overkill. But for somebody who's learning, it's great. But that's it's just um I have like this, it's almost like a paralysis. There's so many tasks to do. I just can't get started on any of them. Um so if I put them into like a logical order, I do it with my finances as well. I will grade them. So if we've got a little bit of debt to pay off, I'll give them like a I'll put them into a grading system. Um, so like this is a priority one debt, or this is a priority one task. Um, so I my everything in my life is graded with numbers, and then it helps me to go, right? I need to focus on number one. What's the number one priority for today? And then it just removes that. So initially it was that I was uh struggling really, really bad just to manage life, um, and I was a single parent with two kids, um, which is hard enough in itself. Um but yeah. Long time ago.

Douglas Aitken: 8:15

And I I'm interested in um how you felt post-diagnosis. Was there a sense of relief that you could start to make sense of it or how how did you feel?

Caroline Carter: 8:29

I always knew. Um so I grew up in a household where when when I was younger, uh my mum was diagnosed with schizophrenia when I was 11.

Speaker 4: 8:38

Right.

Caroline Carter: 8:39

And she was sectioned. So there's a very much a kind of stigma about having any kind of neurological issue. Um, and when I was a kid, nobody really talked about my mum's diagnosis. It was very much kept in the closet and you weren't allowed to talk about it at school, you couldn't tell your friends. Um it's kind of we were encouraged, both me and I've got two younger brothers, uh, to keep it close and not really tell anyone. So I think there was I think it's a lot more open now. When I was diagnosed, you didn't really tell anybody about it. Um you know, you don't want people to look at you differently, especially in a professional capacity. Um but now I think it's the reason why I'm doing what I'm doing today is because of that. That's yeah, it's led me to where I am today. So you can only be thankful, really.

Douglas Aitken: 9:30

Yeah, yeah. That's the way I see it. So earlier on you hinted about uh a varied career. Um give us some snapshots from it, Carlin. Or or in linear order if you prefer.

Caroline Carter: 9:43

Uh yeah, linear order will make more sense to me. Um but yeah, I know I started off when I was younger. Um I did one of my first jobs was a bookkeeping job for a construction company. Um it didn't last very long. I had a very misspent youth. Um and then I had my daughter when I was very young as well. Um, but once I was on the wrong path when I before I had my daughter, and then I had my daughter and it was like that light bulb moment in life where you were like, wow, this is it, this is what, you know, this isn't about me anymore. This is about what I want her to achieve and what I want her to have in life, what opportunities I want her to have. Um so I got a job. I used to work in call centres. And um the only way, because I was so young, all my friends were I was 19 when I had my daughter, all my friends were off partying and you know I was at home with a with a young child. Um so yeah, it's um I just wanted to give her a good example. Um, but my social life was my brother, when I was 19, he was 16. He used to babysit my daughter. Um my social life was working in a pub. Um and that's how I met my son's dad. Um but yeah, and then we were running the pub, um, and then the the company who managed the pub sold the pub from under us, so we bought the lease. And that was my first business at I was 23. But um yeah.

Douglas Aitken: 11:16

And how long did you have that?

Caroline Carter: 11:18

Uh we bought I'm trying to think. It was it wasn't long. We owned the business for three years before that we'd managed the site for for a while as well. Um, but it was like my first foray into accounting. Um, so we're running this business, it was a massive food pub with the three and a half thousand Sunday dinners on a Sunday. We had you know 35 members of staff, it was huge. Um, but we had an accountant. Um, the accountant never wanted to speak to us. Uh if we rang them, you know, they were too busy to take the call. You might eventually get a call back two or three weeks later. Didn't understand VAT, didn't understand bookkeeping, didn't understand, and they were so expensive. But now looking back, I'm like, actually, we got a really good deal for what they were giving us. But as a small business owner, you think, wow, it's super expensive, and you don't see the value. Um, so I did um my first foray into accounting, I did a CIPP payroll qualification because I'm not the person to wing stuff. Um, I need to I need to know every facet of something before I can jump into it. So I started, we brought the payroll in-house. So I did my CIPP qualification, and in the end the cost of the CIPP qualification outweighed the savings that we made with the accountant anyway. Um and then I started doing bookkeeping qualifications to bring the bookkeeping in-house and the accounting in-house. And when we left the pub in 2007, um, you know, I'd I'd already started my journey towards an AAT qualification. Um, I was already CIPP qualified. Um so yeah.

Douglas Aitken: 13:02

Okay. So after the pub, what what came after that?

Caroline Carter: 13:07

Um I did relief management for two years. So when we left the pub in 2007, um my partner at the time, Oliver, my son's dad. Um, we're still very good friends these days. People think it's really weird. Me and my husband went to his wedding. But yeah, um, but we the only thing that we had in common was the pub. So when the pub was gone, it was kind of we were more friends and so we kind of separated and went our own ways. And obviously I had the children. Um so I couldn't continue to do relief management in pubs anymore. Um and my mum was really poorly as well. Um, so I spent 2009 to 2011. I was caring for my mum and the children, kind of out of work, but I was still studying accountancy at college. Um and as a consequence of me studying accountancy at college, um, I met a really good friend, um, Rihanna. She was in my one of my college classes for AAT. And I was telling her, I was really struggling to get a job. I must have sent hundreds and hundreds of applications and to various accountancy practices, you know, across across the town, in other towns. And I just couldn't get anyone to give me a chance. I think I d I do think the minute that you they see that you're a you know a single parent with two young children, that you're just not gonna have the time or the dedication or yeah. But yeah, she gave me my first opportunity to land a job in a county.

Douglas Aitken: 14:40

So yeah.

Caroline Carter: 14:42

She starts work for me next month.

Douglas Aitken: 14:44

Oh wow. Can't wait.

Caroline Carter: 14:46

I can't wait. It's come full circle. We worked together for yeah, about five years. Um, but she was that person, she was like, actually there's a you know, there's a job going at our place. Do you want me to kind of mention your name? And I was like, Oh, absolutely, yeah. That'd be wonderful, thank you. And that was my first opportunity in accounting, that was 2011. Um, I worked there for four or five years. So it's a big big pharmacy company.

Douglas Aitken: 15:14

Yeah. And uh did you know straight away that this was for you? Yes.

Caroline Carter: 15:21

Immediately. It brings that sense of order, doesn't it? I remember at the time they were using uh, you know, everything coming on paper, um, and they were using folio references and files and um everything was scanned and um so some of it was digital um, but predominantly all the paperwork was in big files. They used to get massive statements from the some of the big pharmaceuticals players because they were obviously ordering stock for the various pharmacies that we looked after. And the statements were like huge, they were like 56 pages. It's like reading a book, um, some of the statements. But yeah, I loved it. So it was that's yeah, you just know, don't you?

Speaker 4: 16:03

Yeah. Yeah.

Caroline Carter: 16:05

So I progressed in that business. I went from um just doing bookkeeping um and then I went to doing management accounts and all that kind of stuff. So and then I moved into practice from there.

Douglas Aitken: 16:19

So how did that decision come about to move into practice?

Caroline Carter: 16:23

There was no opportunity for me to go any further where I was. I love the company. Um one of the best jobs I've ever had. And in hindsight, I'm like probably maybe I should have just stayed. Um because they were lovely. Um and my mum passed away whilst I was working there and they just looked after me. Um the whole team at the office looked after me and it was just if I'd been anywhere else, I wouldn't have got the same level of care. But yeah, no, it was um there was just nowhere else to go. The positions above me in the finance team were filled by really competent people and so I thought I need a new fresh opportunity.

Speaker 3: 17:01

Yeah.

Caroline Carter: 17:02

And so I moved into practice and hated it. Yeah.

Douglas Aitken: 17:09

So what type of firm was that with?

Caroline Carter: 17:12

Um, it was a contractor accountants. Um the less said the better maybe.

Douglas Aitken: 17:20

Yes. I suspect I know the one that you're talking about actually. So yeah. Okay. So you you weren't long there?

Caroline Carter: 18:22

Uh no, not long, and then I moved into literally to get out of that job um that I kind of felt trapped in. Um my dad lived around the corner from their offices and I used to go around at lunchtime and just cry. Like I really hate this job. Um, and I just took an agency job just to get out. Um and um yeah, and then I worked for the NHS.

Douglas Aitken: 18:46

Okay.

Caroline Carter: 18:47

Um so I used to work for a trust that no longer exists um in the NHS. And yeah. Yeah. Just moved about a bit.

Douglas Aitken: 19:00

So I'm interested in your experience of the accountant, but going back to the pub, the accountant that you never heard from. How how is that informed how you deal with clients in in your firm now?

Caroline Carter: 19:14

We try not to leave um emails and phone calls and voicemails and WhatsApp messages were answered. Um, even if we haven't got an answer at the moment. Um just getting back to them to say, absolutely, we're aware you've sent this message. You know, we've got a task in our system and all of them know me well enough to go, wow, if it's in the system, it's definitely gonna happen. Um but yeah, um they yeah, it's just making sure they're communicated to and then explaining it to them in terms that they'll understand.

Speaker 3: 19:48

Yeah.

Caroline Carter: 19:49

And so trying to relate it to maybe something in their business or something that they could correlate this with in the in the real world. Um you know. I've been known to tie weird accounting concepts back to all kinds of all kinds of weird and wonderful things. Running being a big one.

Douglas Aitken: 20:09

Yeah, yeah. How and how financially literate are most of your clients? Do you know uh how do you how do you vet who you take on?

Caroline Carter: 20:19

There's a varying scale. And I think we've got clients who've been with us for five, six years before I went limited, and you can see their progression over time. So they've started and they've came on board with us, and they're there's zero understanding. Um they just know what what money's in the bank. They'll occasionally know how much money they're owed from from their customers, um, and that's it. And then they're once a year, you know, what's my tax bill? And there's no preparation, no planning. Then we've got some of them now, and it's that regular discussion with them where they've got a monthly report, we've made some suggestions, we know we're chatting about, they'll come back and they'll go, What if we declare an interim dividend? You know, the the language has changed, their understanding has developed over time. Um, so yeah. One of my longest time standing clients actually met on a running race in the middle of the mountains in Wales. We're running and just chatting about our respective businesses as you do on a 10K uphill. Um yeah, and she came a couple of weeks later, and yeah. That financial understanding develops over time.

Douglas Aitken: 21:30

But because you invest the time. I suspect you're understating the impact that you're having on your clients here.

Caroline Carter: 21:36

Probably. Yeah. Well that we we'll go out and meet clients and you know, once a year we try and catch up with them for a a coffee and cake, and you know, we'll if they want to book meetings in we don't actually this is gonna devalue my time now. Um but we don't charge for if they want to jump on a quick Zoom for 15 minutes, we don't we we deem that to be included in their package of service. If as part of that meeting we identify that they need the addition of another another line of service, then we'll explain that to them and and kind of upsell it. But that regular contact with clients gives us the opportunity to do that. Um we know what's going on in their life, you know, we know what their spouse is doing, we we know what their kids are doing, um, because we speak to them all the time. Yeah.

Douglas Aitken: 22:27

What what would you say roughly your average fee is, Caroline? Just approximately. Average fee, annual or monthly? Either.

Caroline Carter: 22:37

Yeah. Average annual fee is about 1700.

Douglas Aitken: 22:40

Okay.

Caroline Carter: 22:41

On average. Um, but we have the bankers' cell traders and stuff who obviously pay a little bit less than the bigger, bigger companies. Yeah. Yeah. But the average annual fees is currently sat at 1764.

Douglas Aitken: 22:54

Exactly.

Caroline Carter: 22:56

Exactly.

Douglas Aitken: 22:57

Why am I not surprised you know that? Yeah, it's uh one of those KPIs. Please forgive this brief interruption. You secure the future profitability and future growth of your firm when your clients become more loyal, buy more from you, are happy to pay more, and also recommend you more. These four important outcomes depend entirely on the behaviour and mindset of one group of people, your client managers. When your client managers improve their skills and mindset, your firm results naturally improve too. If you think that you could do more to build your client manager's capabilities, please click the Remarkable Client Manager link in the show notes. When you do, you'll be able to complete the client manager diagnostic. It won't cost you anything, and you'll discover the six elements that can help your managers unlock greater success in your firm. What I'm interested in, Caroline, I guess, is in having spoken to other guests about this too, I'm interested generally in smaller businesses who aren't financially literate. Like often accountants in our work with them will say things like, um, oh my clients don't don't want that type of service. Advisory type service, as I would call it. Um and they'll often say, No, clients don't want that. But I'm often torn between, well, how do they know? Because if they've never had it, then how do they know if they don't want it? And you know, often we get difference in estimates of how many um or what percentage of the small business client base needs that type of service. Now, I would say it's relatively high, accountants would say it's relatively low, and I suspect the truth is somewhere in between. Um but I I I'm getting a sense here that you gently do that education and gently cross-sell. You know, do you want to talk a little bit more about that? How you go about it?

Caroline Carter: 25:04

Think about uh when you sign up for a software, and accountants love software, don't they? Um you get a free trial for 14 days or 30 days. That's what we do with clients. Um so we'll kind of prep a set of management accounts um and send it to them for free for two to three months.

Douglas Aitken: 25:23

Okay.

Caroline Carter: 25:24

It's that then the next month they don't they don't get that. We explain to them that we're kind of gonna trial it and see if it adds value to their business. Um, do they find it you know informative? Is it helping them? Can we tweak it and we get their feedback? And then they make that decision then whether they want to kind of take up that service or not. Probably half of them will. Um we do like a varying array of of management accounts. And I hate the term management accounts, traditional management accounts are awful, aren't they? They don't really they're they're still looking at the the past um and not really helping them to plan for the future. Um but it's look it's the small things like how putting a corporation tax estimate into the accounts, making sure all the depreciations run, um, looking at their capital allowances periodically rather than just at the year end, so that that tax estimate is a little bit more accurate. Um and that that's where it adds the value. So they know we we've got some clients who are tracking, you know, they've they've got these modern bank accounts and they've got pots, and in their pot they'll use the figure off our simple management report for a corporation tax estimate to make sure they've got that much money in that bank account. They literally top it up so it matches what we've what we've estimated estimated it to be.

Speaker 4: 26:46

Yeah.

Caroline Carter: 26:47

Um and then when they've got used to that value, which is why we do it for two to three months, um they they can't really live without it. And and that's the idea, isn't it? It's kinda yeah, you need to have s provide them with with a service that they can't really walk away from. It becomes they become reliant on it.

Speaker 3: 27:08

Yeah, it does.

Caroline Carter: 27:08

I think there are some other greater accountants who probably do it better than we do. Um and but I think that's that's the key, isn't it? Being part of their business and part of their their lives on a on a weekly basis or yeah. We have we have touchy awards. We try to touch our clients. Um and the person who's touched the most clients in the month, it sounds awful, doesn't it? Um we'll we'll get to like a touchy award.

Douglas Aitken: 27:37

I love that idea. Do you actually measure your your touches?

Caroline Carter: 27:44

We use contact points in the practice management software. So we'll look at emails and WhatsApps and and have like a little bit of a tally. Um again, it's one of those data things that I've fallen behind with, but it's it's not killing me at the moment. Um but give it another couple of weeks and I'll be like, yeah, I need to bring that back around. It doesn't take long. Well all the data's in the system, you just need to extract it into a way that makes sense for the team.

Douglas Aitken: 28:11

Yeah. Yeah. Um the the data's at the root of everything, isn't it? What you what you can measure, um, you can manage what tends to get managed, tends to get better. Um an oft-quoted phrase, and uh but it's true. I was with a manufacturing company over in Northern Ireland yesterday and uh they measure quality, which you'd expect in manufacturing, but I've I've come back really challenged by what are the analogies or the similarities with accounting. And I actually posted about it today on LinkedIn challenging accountants to how do you measure quality? Um and or do you measure quality at all even? And I know for a fact that the majority of firms don't. They they just don't. They assume that they're putting out a a high quality product, but um who's the arbiter of that? And and then you've got the the other conundrum around um what does the client actually value? They do value a good quality product, of course, but do they value the relationship more where there are these touches um and where there is that education around the finances and where there's a direct link between what they're trying to achieve and you know the the focus of your meetings and whatnot. Um so there's there's a lot wrapped up in that. Tell tell me about what interactions do you tend to have with clients throughout the year, before let's say before the year-end meeting.

Caroline Carter: 29:47

All the time. Um I'm trying to think. We've we've had one client who crashed his van and he he rang us before he rang his spouse. Um it crashed his workpad, he wanted to know what what he needed. I was like, Well, are you okay? And he was like, Yeah, I'm fine. I was like, well, okay, we went and sort of the finance stuff later. Um it's that level of um support. And I think the first thing that goes through somebody's mind when they have a big expensive disaster is how is this going to impact my finances? Yeah. Um it's it's like a pain point for people, isn't it? Have I got enough money? Um, can I cover this expense? So yeah, we talk to people frequently. It does sometimes drive me a bit by because we do get Facebook messages, um, text messages, WhatsApp, emails. Um we get people who chat to us via their software. Um so if they're on zero, they'll leave you know discussion points on the on the bank reconciliation. So there's just all these methods of communication. that are bombarding it. But it works for the client. So if we know that that that client has this preferred method of communication. And we work with an external bookkeeper. And she does all the bookkeeping for one of our larger Soul Trader clients and she prefers Facebook Messenger. So she's probably we communicate with her on Facebook Messenger. But we'll do like you know if she wants to catch up or she's looking at tiding up the books for the year end we'll jump on a on a Teams call or a Zoom call with her. And again I'm doing myself out of money again. We wouldn't charge her for that. So yeah. It's about support isn't it about supporting people.

Douglas Aitken: 31:36

Yeah and I guess it's also personalised as well that people just expect I was going to ask you about client expectations um Caroline. How do you feel client expectations have changed over the last few years say I think they are now looking for a more modern solution to the provision of services.

Speaker 4: 32:00

Yeah.

Caroline Carter: 32:01

We've we've done loads of migrations where people are coming off very old dated software and therefore they're leaving their previous account because their previous account will only deal with this software that they've they've been used to for a long time. They want something a little bit more modern. We're actually moving a client at the moment off quicken. Right, wow quicken I mean I haven't used quicken for they've been on quicken for yonks like donkeys years as they say um but yeah no I think that the expectation it's like Amazon isn't it you order something off Amazon and it arrives the next day and I think that's what that's what they're looking for with the provision of accounts and services and advice. They want somebody to be at the end of the phone somebody that they can drop a quick WhatsApp to them and just say well you know I've just crashed my van what what here are my two options for financing the new one what what's your advice on this and then we can go away and prep what our advice would be um based on their individual circumstances because it's not one size fits all is it?

Douglas Aitken: 33:13

That's right. Yeah I often use the analogy about um Spotify or Netflix. If Spotify or Netflix doesn't give me good recommendations based on what I've watched or listened to you know I'd be pretty grumpy about that but they don't because it learns of course what what genres you like and what music you like and whatnot. And and so that's where that it feels like that drives a lot of client expectations. They really want a personalised thing and you know that that of course goes for employees too. They too expect a personalised experience. Tell me about your team you know what what's what's the next stage for them and for you as well you know what are your aspirations for growth?

Caroline Carter: 34:00

I think we need to balance out. I think we need a couple of maybe till the end of our next financial year to just steady the ship. So yeah that's kind of where we're at the moment and we're not looking to grow the client base at the moment. I mean we will if if somebody comes along that's too good to to turn away um we would take them on board as I think most accounts would but um we're not actively looking to do any marketing activity at the moment our website has been down for a couple of weeks um it's being rebuilt so it's like a little project piece on the side and I'm I'm not that bothered that it's down at the moment because it gives us that that time to settle. So I've grown I I've made hiring mistakes in the past um but the first employee who is took on who is still here is is Emma. She's on maternity leave at the moment and she's back in November. But with my uh background in a in apprenticeships I used to work in apprenticeship um provision um in accounting and I sent both of uh Emma and Dave who work for me have both done apprenticeships through um the training provider that I used to work for. So Emma's finished her level three um Dave's finished his level four. And yeah it's about it's about offering them that that next step isn't it so I know that Emma is interested in maybe looking at um some social media stuff and you know the local um chamber of commerce the local growth hub they've run training courses where I can you know send her on that. Before she went on a maternity we were doing some payroll training so it's about having that bespoke training for each individual person and what what they need that not only fits the business requirements but actually interests them.

Speaker 3: 36:04

Yeah.

Caroline Carter: 36:04

I mean that most accounting's pretty boring in it. So but you know running an AGM for a rock band is probably a little bit more interesting.

Douglas Aitken: 36:14

Yeah. Tell me about um um your biggest success with a client you know maybe maybe it's someone that literally knew nothing about finance at all because they hadn't been supported by their previous accountant um you know tell me about your your biggest success story.

Caroline Carter: 36:32

It's hard to ch I'm I'm looking at the work in progress board now and I'm trying to decide what's it probably the the well we've got a few and it is it's about that that light bulb moment where they kind of they get it they finally they get it um and then they start chasing you then. You kinda oh I've not had this report yet. Oh yeah sorry um it doesn't happen very often but they're educated enough to know when it when things are then due and when they should be receiving data and information um and what it means as well. So we've um yeah it's difficult to pick one client. We've got so many good ones. I mean like everyone we've got some that are not not as good and being putting it nicely.

Speaker 3: 37:26

Yeah.

Caroline Carter: 37:27

Um but yeah no predominantly the client base is really good. Yeah it's that that that moment that that education piece where they finally they get it. Even something as simple as payments on account for self-assessment and they finally get it. Like oh right okay I get it now.

Douglas Aitken: 37:48

Yeah yeah and I think that's the best thing you can give to someone isn't it so yeah yeah absolutely to know that you're actually helping and helping move on their business because inevitably it impacts on their personal life too. Um I suspect you're underselling yourself remarkably here Caroline Probably and I just like I like chatting with people so I think you can you just can't shut me up.

Caroline Carter: 38:13

So if the client rings Dave who works for me will say this I'll say to him oh just be I'll just be two minutes I'll just get this call because we plan to do something and then half an hour later I'll come off the phone it's like see it's never five minutes.

Douglas Aitken: 38:28

Yeah yeah because I'm checking in on them you know how's the dog how's the kids yeah absolutely and and that's the human side isn't it absolutely um well I've really enjoyed our discussion here today um Caroline could go on but in closing I just want to pose a a question that I I tend to pose to guests what do you see as the future for accounting?

Caroline Carter: 38:53

How do you see it changing in the next let's say five years or so and and also maybe associated with that what's going to stay the same in you I think you will all know always need people that are technically sound um I often find that the people who kind of have the technical expertise and the and that skill set don't really like to be in the limelight or in the spotlight or hold the relationship with the client and they kind of wanna want to work in the background. And I I think those people in in the future the the development is to more client facing, more relationship focused um letting AI to take some of the pressure off with the workload um and yeah you're still going to need people with the the technical expertise but I think a lot of the kind of data entry the dreary stuff um is going to disappear over time. Yeah I think we need to jump on board with this A AI revolution. Yeah absolutely yeah so yeah I think it'd be more difficult to recruit as well. And I always recruit based on um you can teach accounty and I I think that comes from I've spent years teaching accounty so um but you can teach accountancy to most people most people will be able to get a basic understanding of it if you hire based on those other skill sets. And so they're able to communicate with people. They're not scared of taking a phone call um they want to build relationships with people they're chatty they're friendly they're personable you can't teach that stuff yeah and so we've started hiring to a completely different set of skills good excellent and what does the future hold for Carline I'm not sure I think I I miss teaching um I don't think I would like to go back to a full time teaching job. I do still teach occasionally to cover sick leave at colleges and stuff. Right but and I think maybe building some kind of educational program um yeah but it it becomes the next shiny object for me. And I really need to focus on just um you know building the business and settling the team and and kind of you know delivering the work for a couple of months improving some of the processes and systems before I jump off on the next um the next new shiny thing like a magpie. Yes. Good self awareness I've already mapped it all out so it's all it's all there in the background for me to jump into but it is the the next shiny project that I need to ignore for a while.

Douglas Aitken: 41:50

Yeah yeah fab. Okay well Carline I've really enjoyed our chat this morning um thanks so much for being a guest on the podcast. Me too thank you thank you. You've just heard Caroline Carter of Carter Clear Accounting talk about how her recruitment has been informed by how she sees the world and how she makes sense of the numbers. These are subjects taught in the Accountants Growth Academy. To find out more go to remarkablepractice dot com or follow the link in the show notes.

Speaker: 42:32

You'll find more valuable discussions with the leaders of ambitious accounting firms at humanize the numbers.online you can also sign up to be notified each time a new podcast is made available this is a short snippet from a podcast with Noel Guilford in which he talks about his definition of advisory if you'd like to hear more go to your usual podcast platform or listen to it on humanizehenumbers.online businesses need somebody from the outside looking at their business and offering suggestions have you thought of this have you thought of that because we're all very close to our own businesses um sometimes it's it's uh you know we can't see the wood for the trees and so having somebody who's who's who's looking uh at your at your business overall and and thinking about the business and how it might be able to grow what possible opportunities are and obviously using the experience of what maybe other clients are doing even though they're not in the same industry I can talk about obviously on an anonymous basis well you know a client of mine is doing so and so and so and so and that's having some success with that is that something that that that you think would be relevant to you