Our experience of working with Accountancy firms over the last couple of decades has shown that every firm, at some point in their history, has experienced the frustrating challenges of a lack of people or lack of time resource, which holds back the growth and future success of their firm.
Sometimes that lack of people and time resource can undermine the existing performance of the business too.
So what do you do?
In this podcast discussion with Glenn Martin of Avery Martin up in county Durham, you'll hear Glenn share insights about what he and his team have done in order to make the key decisions around which clients to work with and which clients not to work with. These decisions have teed up his firm for future success and will help achieve the goals that Glenn has for himself, his team and his clients.
Join Glenn and I on this Humanise The Numbers podcast discussion and hear his valuable insights into how he's making one or two key decisions that will help his firm grow and prosper.
I hope you enjoy the podcast
"One of the decisions that we made was we've just stopped doing tax-only work.
"For example, the landlord who always turns up about a week before the end of January and wants their tax return done.
"We put a bunch of tax returns together and sold them on and now we only do tax returns for our business clients.
"If you're a director of a company, we'll do your tax return, but we don't do tax-only work. It just interrupts your annual work flow too much, December/January time - because we want to be busy every month. We want to be 89% of capacity every month and it's just too disruptive"
Connect with Glenn
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TRANSCRIPT - unedited
Paul Shrimpling: [00:00:00] Welcome to the humanized, the numbers podcast, series leaders, managers, and owners of ambitious accounting firms, sharing insights, successes, and issues that will challenge you and connect you and your firm to the ways and means of transforming your
[00:00:20] Glenn Martin: [00:00:20] firms. I mean, one of the decisions that we made was we've just stopped doing tax on anywhere.
[00:00:27] So the, you know, the, the landlord and who all was turns up about a week before the end of January, what needs to actually turned on all that take the people. We, we. Put a little, um, budget tax returns together and we sold them on and we've just, we just, we're only going to try and do tax returns, like thought business clients.
[00:00:44] So if you're a director of a company, we'll do your tax return. Um, but we don't do tax only work. Cause that is fine. It just interrupts your annual work for term, which this December, January time, because we want to be busy every month. You know, we want to be 89% of capacity every month and it just, it's just too much with disruptive.
[00:01:00] Paul Shrimpling: [00:01:00] Every accountancy firm, at some point in their history experiences, the frustrating people and time limits that hold the future success of their firm back. Sometimes it can be worse than that and actually can undermine the performance of the firm now. So what do you do. Well on this podcast discussion with Glenn Martin of Avery Martin, up in county Durham, you'll hear Glen share a couple of insights and more about how he and his team have worked out who not to work with how not to work with them so that they can genuinely when the sort of clients in the sort of work that they enjoy, that they're good at.
[00:01:39] And they want to build a future of the firm around. Join me and Glen on this podcast.
[00:01:45] Glenn Martin: [00:01:45] Good afternoon, Paul. Um, so, so I'm for those people who don't know me, I'm Glenn Martin, I'm the owner of every Martin accountants. And when she was a small accounting practice based in Chester street, county, Durham, um, we've been going about five years now.
[00:01:57] So we just a small team of me plus four stuff. Um, and we, we sort of cover, um, we, we don't have to about a hundred clients. With, you know, from anything from sort of a hundred thousand pound turnover or biggest clients about eight, 9 million. Um, so my background is that, uh, a trend just for the provincial firm in county Durham.
[00:02:20] So your standard four or five partner firms, I spent 10, 11 years. And then I went to work for another similar size firm. And so I spent about 14, 15 years in partners. Um, after that I got the opportunity to go and work for client, uh, as an FD. And at the time, if I was honest at the time, I just thought it was right, because I just didn't the word w w I trained to do within the practice.
[00:02:46] I was like a non-cloud non-audit member of staff and a non-touch member of staff. So we were just in this generic pool of small businesses. So we did, we did everything for them. So we had just an all around knowledge of everybody without being a specialist in any field. And at our time it was when, you know, people were starting to wanting to do more reporting and things.
[00:03:06] And I just felt that there wasn't the tools available to do a good job for people. So other than doing the once a year, set the sheet, the tools at that time, weren't really. And to do a good job. So when I was off the FDA at all, I just want to be a bit different in a fresh set of skills to learn. So I went and did that.
[00:03:24] So in over about the next 10, 15 years, I ended up working with three or four sort of law or family companies that were in the startup stages. When I joined them, the group to be quite big. And I just feel a little had me accompany accompanied experience that the real education star event. So that's when develop a lot of commercial skills outside of just being an accountant.
[00:03:44] So we know, you know, I've got involved in the HR side of things, legal side of things, leases, um, how to do acquisitions of properties. Um, immigration, all these sort of extra business skills you picked up, um, when you're sitting in the FD set. So after abouts, um, so I did, that's what sort of split my career?
[00:04:02] 50 50 in between FDA. And the and price. And I got, well, when I got it on four year old, I just thought it wasn't a good job. Well paid bonuses. And I just thought, well, I moved to another Sempra. It'd be the same as where I'm at now for the next 20 years. And I'd always want to have this itch to scratch about doing some on my own, because I grew up with a lot of people.
[00:04:20] Who've become very rich and very, very successful and a little I'd be along for the ride. I hadn't really gotten the. Benefits of that. Nothing else. Yeah. Yeah. So I just thought, well, now's the time if I don't do it now, I'll never will. And after one it sort of get the 50 year old and think, well, I wish I'd done it.
[00:04:36] And so that's what we decided to do set up. And what I wanted to do was really a hybrid practice of my career. So do this F bring this F the in commercial skills that are. You know, business, which I know millions of pounds to bring into the small business market. Cause I just felt that level of support wasn't there.
[00:04:55] And that was what stopped a lot of small firms become a medium size firms and because they didn't have access, you know, whether it, you know, because when you're starting out, if you go to, uh, like the firms I trained with the wouldn't be interested in it because you couldn't afford to pay the fees from day one.
[00:05:10] So it was really, you know, I wanted to be in a position where. I admitted the decisions where I would take on a client. If I thought he was going to be a good time in two years time, I would take them on now suppose that, and then immigrate a client. And so that was really what. Um, it did to a degree, but not successful enough, basically.
[00:05:32] Wha what I was, what I sort of envisioned was, um, I would have 20 clients and I would do a day a week, a day, a month for each of them. And I'd just be like a little portfolio Ft, helping all these businesses to grow. The reality was we'd been going about six months in, I had had maybe six, seven clients that fit the bill.
[00:05:51] So obviously. Quite a good salary as Neff date to go and do this. And so something needed to happen to stimulate that. So I just thought, well, we're going to have to do some compliance work to hopefully use that as that the youth team, if you like to the, to the FD stuff. So then we obviously had a site engaged in and doing payroll, the people who keep it and things like that.
[00:06:12] Um, but then again, that, that obviously did allow us to grow. So really that the practices sort of maintain where we do half of what we do is just compliance work and we try and only sign up people who want to grow. So we don't, if somebody is a sole trader and only ever want to be a sole trader they're, maybe not for us as soon as a sole trader.
[00:06:30] And they've got plans to have five stuff, 10 stuff in two years time, then they're somebody who will do a lot. Right. So half the clients coming to that bit, and then obviously as they come through, we try and get them where, you know, Quarterly meetings are we'll put business plans in places. So that's where we try and manage it 50 50.
[00:06:49] And to be honest, that's where we've managed to grow quite well with. So you obviously that there is a problem in that. Certainly we do produce good clients or other people, and that once people get successful, everybody wants to know you. So we do sometimes news if feel at the top end, but that's, that's, you know, we obviously, as a small team, you can't use sometimes.
[00:07:08] Skills needed to keep people out there. The advanced tech skills,
[00:07:12] Paul Shrimpling: [00:07:12] and even even the mid, mid tier firms at Glendale, they lose a client to KPMG or PWC because they're the next step that stage management, isn't there clients. And it's understanding that, you know, you, you're not going to keep applying for decades and decades if they're a growing firm, because.
[00:07:27] Their needs and their complexities is going to change. And either your firm adapts to that and grows in the simple flight path, or if you're on a different flight path, they're eventually going to, um, perhaps find a firm that better suits their needs at that time. Yeah. So 50. Virtual lefty work, 50% compliance work.
[00:07:44] So you've got half your businesses scaled around your team and half the businesses entirely reliant on you. If I understood that. Yeah, pretty much it. Right. Okay. Okay. Um, so w where are you going with this? So you're five years into your last 20, just using your language to the degree where, wait, where are you taking it?
[00:08:01] What's the, what's the vision for the business?
[00:08:03] Glenn Martin: [00:08:03] I mean, at the minute, it's. The bit that I do have your like is at capacity. So it's that stuff can't do any more. So that's almost sold as like a golden ticket service. So at the end of the year, we will see, you know, there's one slot for some new Vale who wants to go into, to the FD program.
[00:08:22] So it's sold as like a very high level thing. And then if I'm honest, I'm trying to be. The other services we do. So I don't know where the line between compliance and advisory starts. Cause obviously it's, it's a very generic term, but I, I see the future or a good part of the future is building out your compliance.
[00:08:42] So, right. You know, instead of just doing bookkeeping, you can do credit control for people. You can do, you know, now there's this tools which allow you to do payment processing for people and just things like that, you know, debt collection and do things. That's all, we're just trying to build out in all this, more of them.
[00:09:00] So it's not just the virtual FD, it's this finance department at the end of a telephone instead of the end of the corridor. So that's, that's the bit that we're trying to grow out because that's obviously that's infinitely scalable, whereas it's different. To unless I brought in another SD, which would cost a huge amount of money to, to grow the FD side.
[00:09:18] So that's what we're trying to do. So we've just stopped, took a bit of a breather at the start of this year, because if I'm honest, we'd be knocked around a bit in the last eight months. Like most people in that, in some people, it became very difficult to support, you know, and when businesses reopened, they just weren't interested in the bookkeeping and things.
[00:09:37] So it got a bit devastated. We we've looked at every client we dealt with, went through the review of everybody said, we're going to go forward with you unless you do this. We'll kind of go forward with you. So. Quite a bit of the, the Nazi good clients, if be like at the start of this year. All right. And then that's create some capacity.
[00:09:56] So obviously we're now pushing really this outsourced finance department. And that's what we're looking at before.
[00:10:02] Paul Shrimpling: [00:10:02] Right. So are you saying that what you're actually looking for in terms of an ideal client is one who wants both some of your FD support and the compliance services as well. And if they don't want to take both, they're not an ideal client for you as you understood that, right?
[00:10:16] Glenn Martin: [00:10:16] Pretty much. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Right.
[00:10:18] Paul Shrimpling: [00:10:18] Cool. Cool. Um, but ultimately there's still this bottleneck around how many of these. SD type clients you can manage. And therefore that will then knit then growth is the third book. You cool with that?
[00:10:29] Glenn Martin: [00:10:29] Or if I'm honest at the sort of age I am up that I'm cool. I've got no desire to have like a million pound fam or whatever.
[00:10:38] I'm sort of, if I, if I sort of grow constantly from now for the next 10 years, that would be big sorted, you know? So, um, it's about like, I w I would like to bring in more of the, the law, not the law and stuff, the compliance based stuff. And because obviously that's your return phase and that's, what's called value of see when you couldn't retire.
[00:10:59] So that's what,
[00:11:00] Paul Shrimpling: [00:11:00] yeah. The capital value piece. And that, that, that is a challenge that, you know, lots of firms have, uh, posing questions. How do you a scale that advisory, the FD virtual FD piece, um, so that you can get a capital. Pay back out of that, and then obviously compliance. Isn't going to go away anyway, anywhere soon.
[00:11:23] And so you can still build a firm around that and that the business owners are you seeing that business owners you work with. And it's interesting that you've done that deep dive review of your a hundred clients and some have gone out of your choice because they didn't fit to create the capacity for others that do, are you seeing.
[00:11:41] Uh, a different, uh, need, want that requirements from clients now compared to say two years ago, pre the pandemic?
[00:11:52] Glenn Martin: [00:11:52] Yeah. I mean, I think in a way it's, it's, it's been good in a way, because I think, I think to a lot of people, it's the first hard times a lot of people that I've ever had in business, because if you've set up the last five or six, seven years, it's, you know, Being relatively headache-free in that time.
[00:12:12] Yes. It's sweet. It's it's, it's forced people actually look a lot. What are they doing? Because they're just not so much just from the numbers and the finances as part of you, but actually how the business works. Because when the lockdown first, Kim, we had some grid businesses that had been traded for say a 10 year.
[00:12:28] You know, 2 million pound turnover, but when the world was locked down at sort of 48 hours, notice I was surprised and shocked at how poor a lot of clients e-commerce capability was. You know, we had a lot of people who sell, sell within 10 miles of the unit in avant and the door of the had zero presence or into the heart of the website that book 10 years ago never looked at it.
[00:12:52] And so all of a sudden it was like, well, what do we do. And, you know, we have great some great restaurants, but it was quite often what would we do? You know, the, the, the wind, they never thought takeaways was just like a greasy thing that somebody down the road did, it wasn't for them. So that, that would that obviously people had to all of a sudden change put in a very, very short space of time to survive.
[00:13:16] Cause you know, some people, like if you had a restaurant that was closed, your burn rate might still be in 70 a thousand pounds a month. So it was like, what can you. To get intent and in, so you're not losing any money. And so all this had to happen really quickly. So, um, it's forced people to change a lot of business.
[00:13:32] And it is this thing about not just going back to what was before, because if you've built a five or 6,000 pounds a week, take the business on the side of your restaurant. Why would you not keep on doing that? As long as it didn't argue me in business, or there was a lot of things like that. So we had a lot of people who pivoted the business in a different things.
[00:13:50] Yeah. And there are a lot, it's just a lot more leaning out, a lot more efficient. You know, people were forced to look at costs and it was, you know, things like, do you need this big office now? Do we just need a smaller office where people come in a couple days a week and just saw all of this. And it was good for us to be involved.
[00:14:05] Cause obviously we are having a good handle on the numbers. You can actually have them conversations quite easily with people because it was very, very time-sensitive because it happened so fast. And so, so that was very awesome. So, so we, you know, So people's business are a lot different. I think now a lot leaner, a lot, you know, a lot more efficient and it's because it's been forced.
[00:14:24] Otherwise, you know, people would have been in a lot of trouble through it. Did,
[00:14:28] Paul Shrimpling: [00:14:28] did you come under any sort of price, price, pressure
[00:14:30] Glenn Martin: [00:14:30] from clients? No. I mean, we, I was just a hundred percent honest at the start of it all. Um, we called everybody and we just said, you know, ultimately we're a small business, the same as you.
[00:14:42] So all of the same policies you're going through, we are as a business as well. We will endeavor to get everybody through it. Um, yeah. Um, but obviously we, we would hope that all monthly direct debits would be in tendon if the, if you're unable to do so, let us know before the bounced, but be honest, we've never had a bounce pen all the way through.
[00:15:01] If I'm honest, with the benefit of hindsight, we were probably too soft on extras in that we have within our engagement, what we call a quick query service, which is supposed to be a 10 or 15 minute things. It's partly a monthly fee reality was that 40 minutes was probably getting done to lock down and not being charged.
[00:15:19] Um, we took quite the light approach to the third lowest of it would basically probably covered cost on it. We could have recovered more from that. Um, because I think initially we, we, it was sort of built, it was going to be this three month. So I wasn't positive. I put the time in for three months, but it was just after when you think about, and obviously then you're like halfway in it now it's like, well, how can I start charging things now?
[00:15:43] So I think we could have charged more. So I was pleased that nobody wanted to chip our fees and normally bounce payments. But I do just sit, we could've pushed it a little bit more because there was a few people who at the end of it, or when we sat down with them and did a service review. And we said, well, you know, this is what you've had for the last 12 months.
[00:16:02] This is what it should have cost. They were like, okay, I'm going down the road at 50 quid treatment. And well, that's, you know, we're supported here. And so it was a bit poor. So there was a few people which I just actually, I wish maybe I haven't put as much time with you. And that was, uh, the overall overall, it was the, you know, the response to it, like for the, all the we did with.
[00:16:23] But I do think we could have, I think everybody probably feels the same. The party could have been a little bit more out of it. If the one or two and push.
[00:16:31] Paul Shrimpling: [00:16:31] Yeah. Th th there's a spectrum isn't there. And the, you know, those, those quite a number of, uh, LinkedIn and Twitter feed conversations around, you know, discharge, everything.
[00:16:41] Do you charge nothing? Are you somewhere in between? And you know, the vast majority of firms are somewhere in between. They're not necessarily charged format somewhere. And maintain great client relationships. Others have charged for whack and not maintain, you know, this is, this is a cross section and you just, you, you know, you make your choice in the,
[00:16:57] Glenn Martin: [00:16:57] yeah.
[00:16:58] I mean, we wouldn't work. We wouldn't work because the people thought that all the charged for fell. I mean, some of the charges that some people did receive locally work, extreme hours set to be on spending. And we were, when were as a result of that. So there's always things around about,
[00:17:11] Paul Shrimpling: [00:17:11] yeah, it is. It is.
[00:17:12] And, um, the clients that you care about and they care about you. The work you've done will stand you in good stead over the
[00:17:20] Glenn Martin: [00:17:20] longterm.
[00:17:22] Paul Shrimpling: [00:17:22] Yeah. The ones, the ones who were just watching the money will never send you in good step log.
[00:17:26] Glenn Martin: [00:17:26] Yeah, that was the only, yeah, that was the interesting part of it, because I think when the COVID thing.
[00:17:31] The people who are already gauged engaged in a lot of extra services, sort of some people who were getting to see me quarterly and getting monthly EMI and things that are, they breeze through it almost because the reporting system was in place and the regular meetings was in place. It was just an adjustment to what they were already doing.
[00:17:49] And it was the people who were sort of engaged with. Compliance level really wet, which were the difficult ones because they needed extra help, but they didn't think they should have to pay for that. They just thought it was y'all responsible to deal with whatever comes up in that 12 month period. And there they were the ones that was, it was a bit difficult to support because they know that they knew they needed some help, but they just wouldn't, they wouldn't.
[00:18:13] Paul Shrimpling: [00:18:13] how has that influenced your thinking in terms of the type of new clients you, when, in order to support the growth of your
[00:18:22] Glenn Martin: [00:18:22] yeah, I mean, there's, I mean, one of the decisions that we made was we've just stopped doing tax on anywhere. So the, you know, the, the landlord and who all was turns up about a week before the end of January, what this actually turned on, all that take the people.
[00:18:36] We, we. Put a little, um, budget tax returns together and we sold them on and we've just, we just, we're only going to try and do tax returns, like thought business clients. So if you're a director of a company, we'll do your tax return. Um, but we won't do tax only work because that is fine. It just interrupts your annual work term, which this December, January time.
[00:18:56] Cause we want to be busy every month. You know, we want to be 89% of capacity every month and it just, it's just too much of a disruption. Um, so we stopped doing that and. We just now, um, we focused on the quality of client more, whereas in the past we tend to have two big hits of client intake. So yeah, we get a lot of it restaurants, March, April time, and then a lot of interest around now.
[00:19:18] And in the past week, maybe he's taken on 10 clients quite close together and then maybe two or three of them had fallen by the wayside or six months. So now we'll just have to get that process better where we maybe two on two or three clients, but the absolute right fit from day one and okay.
[00:19:36] Paul Shrimpling: [00:19:36] But brilliant.
[00:19:37] It's interesting. I was in a dialogue with a firm about onboarding this week, that new clients. Yeah. And, um, how, uh, how. There's a, a natural phrase normally associated with in board onboarding a, um, a three word phrase and the first two words of paint, sorry, four words, paint in the, fill out the blank.
[00:19:58] There's associate, you know, onboarding is a pain and then like, hang on a second. Hang on a second. The first experience of a new client from an onboarding perspective, the single most important moment of truth that, that client experiences. And I know there's lots of moving parts on boarding and challenges in terms of getting the information and, you know, money-laundering and oh yeah.
[00:20:23] And it, and it can feel as though in the firm, they all see it from owner down to the administrators that it's a right. You know, pitter and or pain in the neck, if you want to be polite, when actually it is arguably the most important moment in that client experience, because any business owner who makes a decision to move accountants are going to be wondering, or whoever made the right decision.
[00:20:51] Have I made the right and your onboarding process tells them whether you have, they have all the. And as a consequence of the onboarding process will determine whether they recommend other people or they don't. And if they start out with your firm, not recommending you, it doesn't matter what you do over the next 6, 12, 18 months.
[00:21:10] It still won't. Whereas if you start right, they'll recommend more to you. What, what's your approach to onboarding? What's your attitude to onboarding?
[00:21:17] Glenn Martin: [00:21:17] And actually, I mean, it's something we all were trying to put more and more into it, really. And we, we have a, quite a strict process. We all try and follow it because when I, when I, what I did was when I, when I was doing the big review in the air, I looked at who the best clients.
[00:21:33] Where they came from and how we took them on. And it was a common theme on the ones that were done from Andrew and through our system worked well. The ones where we maybe missed a few steps out, or the ones that were were, were in cigarettes, or, I mean, a big, big thing is now. When we get a new inquiry, we always send them some pre-work out first.
[00:21:55] So before we have a conversation or a meeting with them, we'll just collect some core data. You know, what their goals and the M's are set at the previous year's accounts, what the issues currently are. And that's just a great, that's just a great one straight away, because a lot of people just see our comment about the fellow.
[00:22:10] Well, that's, that's your first qualification that they're not for you. So, you know, if somebody put on the, on the people who engage with the actually think it's great because if somebody comes to see you and two other accountants, the other two accounts, you just turn up for your meeting call and you probably spend a big part of the meeting talking about non-relevant things we get.
[00:22:29] Neil before the meeting. So we can pitch the meeting that hits all the points or our meetings are a lot better and because we've got this work pre-work and place. Um, so again, it's, it's one of those things where I guess you never finished with your systems. You never get, you're always looking to do better, but I just think it is one of those things.
[00:22:48] And a big thing for me as well, because obviously I've also been making the transition from Minnesota trader to having a team of people. So in the past, the biggest problem I had was everybody knew me. And so now it's like at the onboarding stage, I quickly introduce people to, who's going to be doing most of that.
[00:23:04] And then, then I'm so out of that loop, I'm still there as, at the end of the day, our point of contact of the neater. But really this is the girl that does your payroll. This is who's gonna look after zero account to your bookkeeper, et cetera. And that's important to get that in as soon as you can, because.
[00:23:21] Paul Shrimpling: [00:23:21] So H how good are your team had actually following those processes and system? It's one thing to design the system, and it's another thing
[00:23:27] Glenn Martin: [00:23:27] actually follow up, to build the team of grit. It's me. It was probably the biggest problem.
[00:23:33] Paul Shrimpling: [00:23:33] It's always in it. It's
[00:23:34] Glenn Martin: [00:23:34] the leaders. They're always the worst offenders until it be following the system.
[00:23:37] They follow step by step it's me who just writes something.
[00:23:44] Paul Shrimpling: [00:23:44] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I'm guilty as charged as well, Glen, I really am. Um, but it is, there is a standard isn't there, it's about setting a standard in the firm around the key systems and onboarding in terms of client care and onboarding in terms of future lead generation and the longevity of the client staying with you is, is one of those jugular moments of truth, for sure.
[00:24:07] Um, so when, if I go, if I. Ask a question around, so this podcast around, you know, bringing greater humanity to the role of an accountant and the team of people in an accountancy firm, what, what do you think that means to you? And how do you see that evolving in, in your firm with your clients and your team?
[00:24:30] Glenn Martin: [00:24:30] I mean, we were all, obviously what we're about is providing a high level of service to a smaller number of clients. So it's not about, um, you know, it's, it's about. The team being consistent, not changing stuff over all the time. So, you know, and we, we're looking at ten-year relationships for our client, you know, we're not looking to just look after somebody for two years and then let them move on.
[00:24:51] So I think it was like, say for me, it is about the personal side and it's, I've always enjoyed the people I work with is to post to the word. And it has to ultimately, you know, you do have to like the people you work with, you know, you can't, I couldn't, I couldn't work with somebody just who paid a big fee, but he was, he was difficult to deal with and it was just all exactly.
[00:25:14] I mean, there is a lot of people who would fall in that category. You know, I pay a large fee, therefore, like I have ownership of what you was doing, control what you do. Um, you know, it has to be a mutual thing. It has to be mutual relationship with people. Um, and, and I think we, we sort of absolute the clear up we've had, I think we're now, but on truck where, you know, if I look at the people that I work with, people who I enjoy working with and, you know, and, and, and for me, we have two client.
[00:25:44] One of them is sort of like millennial take clients. And these are guys who came to me, you know, and now the buying the first homes and things, and we're helping them do that. We help them structure the business so they can get their owners right. To get more. We'll just get the first hall and get married.
[00:25:58] And you're a part of all that journey with people, you know? So it isn't about, you know, it's about aligning all that personal goals and personal finances without of the business, because I think a lot of people just set their business up and they just think, well, we'll just run it for 20 years and then we'll retire, but it's.
[00:26:12] You know, you've got to have all his personal stuff outside of that as well. And that's yeah, we just put a lot more thoughtless and that's suite, we've worked with a lot of other partners, really that plug a lot of the gaps that we don't do. So typically small businesses are bad. Compliance, not just accountancy compliance, but you know, if you've got five staff, nobody ever has contracts of employment for them.
[00:26:35] And so we just have people around them like that, that, that protect them because obviously we've just had all our brand and redundant and new brand and is like a shield around us sapling. So it's like we sort of protect them while they're growing the business and make sure everything's in place. So we've got good legal people around us.
[00:26:51] We've got HR people around us insurance guys. Financial advisors, mortgage guys who gave all the extras really around once you're in, it's a powerful sell cause everybody works with each other. Everybody knows who their ideal client is. So it's like a powerful little bond we have with like five or six with a lot of businesses, really.
[00:27:13] Paul Shrimpling: [00:27:13] Glenn you say you've got to advertise. One's the millennials first time family starting out. Um, and so on, what's the avatar,
[00:27:22] Glenn Martin: [00:27:22] th this is one of the, the, um, it's the most bizarre thing really, that, that I've noticed is when it cause basically. In sort of March little time this year, we would just shut it because we'd had, we'd worked flat out all the way through COVID and we would just, we had no holidays, no breaks or anything.
[00:27:42] And I just thought it's not working anymore. We need to look at what. Who we're working with, who do we like working with? Who causes all our problems, whether the, whether the bar is set. And when I looked at the best clients, I said, right, we need it. We need to pick up a perfect client. And I thought we'll have two perfect clients.
[00:28:00] So I had this group where there was some people went into one other of block, so went in and were there. And then the ones who didn't fit either of those. We're about 20% and that was the headache people and, and
[00:28:13] Paul Shrimpling: [00:28:13] the towns and pitters millennials.
[00:28:17] Glenn Martin: [00:28:17] And I've always pondered about what this avatar should look like and who it should be.
[00:28:21] And when I've looked at it, it's me now, and me 20 years ago. So the millennials are like what I was 20 years ago. So people who. The, the young in energetic, but the last part of your experience, whereas now it's the people who have got a bit more heavy on the shore. Lippert they just want a bit extra skill that they haven't got in house.
[00:28:41] So that's, that's the, to advertise towards me now. And obviously it's easy to get on with yourself. So that's ultimately how it works, but it just took us five years to realize that that was. Yeah.
[00:28:51] Paul Shrimpling: [00:28:51] Interesting. And you know what, w w we, we, as a business have gone through the set we've, we've done a strategic review over the summer, and it's not completely finished yet.
[00:29:00] We've got another session a day on it next week, and, uh, reached a similar conclusion, um, albeit our two avatars or personas or profiles, whatever label you want to give it, um, fit that, um, you know, a business owner that looks like you have an accountancy firm. Who's got, you know, 10 years, 15 years. Maybe five years to go.
[00:29:22] Who's actually starting to, or already thinking about where's the succession, where's the out capital value out, um, and, uh, doing work to build a team scale, uh, knowledge, skill client relationships, so that they can actually sell internally or at the very least create a stronger team. So it's appealing to.
[00:29:45] Yeah to, to an external buyer. Um, so that's one of our personas, not dissimilar to the one you described me now, but the accountancy version of that. And then, um, the other one is that is the younger version who's buying in or wants to buy in and wants to pursue a capital value part to their career, not just a job, uh, which is sort of you leaving the accounting firm or.
[00:30:08] Leaving the FD role and wanting to paddle your own canoe. Um, so, so it's interesting, we're in a similar, similar space there. Um, but it's, you know what Glenn it's can you see? Well, it's simple. It's to me, you humanize, you bring a degree of you call it enjoyment, but I call it, you know, enjoyment with humanity.
[00:30:27] If actually your clients fit really well, who you want to work with. And if they don't fit really well, then it's always, well, it's not always, it's never, it's never really going to feel as good as it
[00:30:39] Glenn Martin: [00:30:39] could. Yeah. And then the day it has to, you know, you spend a lot of time, you know, 40 hours a week or whatever doing what you do.
[00:30:47] So you have to, you have to enjoy a good part of it. I mean, yes, there is bad times and you know, the stressful times and things that, but ultimately you've got to enjoy most of what you do otherwise, you don't really do it well then.
[00:30:57] Paul Shrimpling: [00:30:57] Yeah, absolutely. And don't you think that's actually connected with the team you work with or the clients you work with more than anything else, and that's why that, you know, bringing greater and greater humanity to what we do and makes eminent sense.
[00:31:09] I think, um, I'd like to go down a slightly different avenue, uh, maybe push one or two buttons. What's your attitude to pricing Glenn Martin, as well as the services in the firm. How have you shifted and moved during your five years in terms of your perception of your value, your perception of what your prices should be for what you and your firm do?
[00:31:32] Glenn Martin: [00:31:32] We went through, if I'm honest, the original business plan was, was quite. And that because I'd left quite a well-paid job. I only had to find out amount of money to make it work. Otherwise I would have to just go back and take a job. So the first, the first step was survival. So for that, I needed about to get it to about 50, 60% of what we own is where before the next step was to get up to the previous level of.
[00:31:55] And then obviously the third set was just to go beyond that. So it was like, it just defied all the risk and sort of stress or whatever you were taking. If I was honest, when I started, I didn't really have a plan beyond that. So I just sort of that and get up to where, you know, 20, 30 grand a year, more than I wasn't employment.
[00:32:10] That's me winning at life type of things. Yeah. If I'm honest, the way it panned out in the first year, because we need it to survive. We probably made a mistake. A lot of people that will do everybody will tell you not do, but often find it's inevitable. They're not to fall into. So any client who's got a wallet is a client.
[00:32:27] And whether they're prepared to pay the proper rate or anything is beside the point of anybody who's got, you know, so we ended up, we ended up busy for not enough money, you know, to a lot of more value on. So we had to shed that skin. Tick tick forward the ones who were a bit better, a job, a bit better fee, and then start again.
[00:32:46] And then, um, I was only really in the last 18 months, two years where we've sort of sat down and just thought, well, hold on. What, what is our value for what we do? So we've got, you know, we're you, we've got one of them. We use one of the pricing tools to do it. So we sit down and a big thing, I guess, a big.
[00:33:04] The first thing you've got to do is an accountant or something that we were bad at was doing stuff for free. And so the first step you've got to do to get your price and rate is you've just got to learn to charge for everything, or if you're not charging for it, why you're not charging for it. So you've got to have a transparent engagement.
[00:33:21] So this is what we're going to do for you every month. And this sort of costs anything outside of. Outside of this quick theory thing is it is a charge extra. And that's quite a big step actually. Cause a lot of people within a lot of people are comfortable in the monthly fee in that the look at the annual.
[00:33:37] Produce from all these monthly phase and the distinct, well, actually, that's all careful what I do, but within that, there'll be jobs that draw a lot more effort out for what the pier and there'll be also ones that you've probably got a good fee cause the come from a big family and you don't actually do that much for whatever.
[00:33:51] So the first, the first sort of first thing is just learning to charge for anything, or even get the mindset of the staff. You know, if you've been doing these payroll for a year and he's now what 20 people on. And he started off as five, you need to say, or you need to raise that as a query and you don't just do it every month because you did it the month before.
[00:34:08] So that is getting that mindset in place first. And then I think now where it says now work mistake more about the value we do. So on the higher end stuff, um, You know, it's, haven't, haven't like systems in place really for that, where we are charging, what, you know, what we're worth. And, you know, if we're fully in a finance department, that's a, that's a big thing.
[00:34:28] We are bringing to somebody, you know, that's a big headache with it and we haven't somebody who's made sure that's correctly charged. So, um, so w w w with a lot of that now, because it's a bit more systemized, we've got, uh, you know, like a regular review process of services and we keep on looking on pricing and things that, so.
[00:34:47] But again, it's something that you probably never totally crack cause you you've got an ongoing
[00:34:52] Paul Shrimpling: [00:34:52] process to review and, and, and refresh and so on. So you, you made the statement there charging what we're worth. How do you determine what it is you're worth?
[00:35:04] Glenn Martin: [00:35:04] It is very different and it's something I've challenged a lot, particularly on the FD stuff I do.
[00:35:09] Cause because you in it, we had an incident last year. There was a guy you had quite a good bit, his business. Wasn't great. When it came to us to be fair, there was a lot of things wrong, which were blatantly obvious to us because we weren't, we were coming in cold. So there was a lot of low-hanging fruit, which we tie-dyed off.
[00:35:27] And after about eight months of his business was a lot better than it was. And he said, right, what we want to do is we want to build this. Cause he's business was one. It was something that would sell on a multiplier of profit saw that was like six or seven times profits, or he had it. And then, and level figuring that, and he said, yep.
[00:35:44] Of what they want to source it. Right. If that's what you want to do, it's going to be a couple year journey to get there. I said, wait, you know, we can do all that we need to do. We I'll effectively become the MD of the company. And he just thought, right. And he just wanted to sort of step back and, and I said, right, so what to do with the business part and this next.
[00:36:01] What contracts do we need to win? And he was like, oh, you just do that. And I said, well, you've got to be involved with your business. And it just came. It became apparent that he want all the benefits of selling out, but he didn't want to do anything differently than he was currently doing. And I just thought, well, hold on.
[00:36:16] We might have give you a proposal for, I think his proposal was about 30 grand a year later, and I've done one thing and I don't know a whole lot. If you're going to sell out in wa we have a 10 million pound in three years. We're going to lose a 30 grand a year client. And really in not circumstances, we should be having the equity out of that, or we should be at and summit out with the proceeds.
[00:36:37] But, and it's so I was just actually, you know, initially what we thought was a good fee, actually, probably wasn't for the amount of commitment we would have to put in for the next couple of years. And it's, it's, it's just thinking on that really about, and, and it's, it is a difficult one because I don't know, I don't know how you would successfully structure that deal and how you've got the client to buy in, but some people.
[00:36:55] I do get it. You know, if they're just sitting where I'm under too, I've got a business worth, a million pounds. You're going to help me take the one worth 10 then. Yes, I'll. I'll happily give you some of that. Beyond your accountancy base. Some people get that. Some people just think, well, no, I'll just pay you an annual fee and I expect you to do it.
[00:37:14] Um, so it is, I mean that as a challenge, I mean, I'll be keen to know what, who was tracked that all who successfully done it, but it is worth it's quite, I find that sometimes the biggest challenge, the is the biggest. We have, when we're doing FD type work is it's the owner. And then often you'll get a lot of the time where the staff, everybody, cause everybody wants to work in a better business than they currently do.
[00:37:35] So your stuff, buy-in's usually not the issue, but often that the owners sometimes what the benefit put the dog really want to change anything they're doing. Right. And it's that sort of your going to do that change for it? It's it's how do you get fully rewarded for that? It's a
[00:37:51] Paul Shrimpling: [00:37:51] big question. Is it Glen?
[00:37:52] If you check out. On the podcast role, uh, Luke Smith from purpose. In fact, we had such a long conversation. We had to split it into two, but he's, he's, um, he shares a number of insights. Um, and he's the sort of guy that, um, you know, he's, he's, um, he's a busy bloke book. Um, you know, if you ask he's the sort of guy who gives, so if he did to pick up the phone and talk to him, then that have a go, um, he's not, he's not frantically telling you to, um, You know?
[00:38:22] No, I won't because he has got the time, but it's worth having an approach, but listen to the podcast with Luke, because you'll hear his approach to, um, the, some of the work he does, which enables him to actually have equity in the businesses that he works within that FD capacity.
[00:38:40] Glenn Martin: [00:38:40] That's got it. Good. Cause one of the clients has successfully actually done what, what we've just talked about there because we've got, um, we, we look after quite a good social media range.
[00:38:51] And when the lockdown hit, the literally they were like a hundred grand a month channel the business. And the literally had 60, 70,000 per month cancel, like, first of it was gone and a big part of what they did was hospitality. So they had loads of these hotels and stuff out there did. So we had a meeting in their office and said it was eight, right.
[00:39:09] What we're going to do? The end of the day. I know what's your background, but the hospitality thing's gone for for 12 months, it's gone, you know, what's going to be massive in the lockdown e-commerce stuff. So you need to pivot into that now. And what happened was they managed it. There was a few other startups that were forced on by lockdowns who had been made redundant and things out, and they set up their own brands and they approached these guys and they said like, you know, we've got this grid.
[00:39:36] We'll need the market clear why we do the marketing on social media and they managed to successfully get 50% sticks and a lot of these companies, and they said, we will do your marketing for you. And we'll build the brand for her on Facebook and Instagram, whatever. And then some of these things have went huge.
[00:39:52] I mean, there's two of them now, which are like, you know, six, $7 billion businesses now. And you know, they've got investment, they've got, obviously the social labs have got a good state and the business, and I'm just saying, well, actually, that's, you're better than me in that respect. You've done a great deal then.
[00:40:07] Um, but I guess obviously you will have so many of you who you feel with. Um, but I just think that, that, that, you know, what they've done is great. And I've said we were on the back of it. We are part of the team. So they'll, they'll do the mountain of the people that will get us in to do the finances for these e-commerce.
[00:40:22] So, so we, obviously, we, my background is hospitality. So, you know, I am, you know, at the minute, not looking for more hospitality work, but the e-commerce of Scott potential to be huge for us as well, because we've got some great brands. We work with
[00:40:35] Paul Shrimpling: [00:40:35] a couple of niches there. One of the, if I can just chip in, if I can blend with that, is that the conversation is as much around what it is.
[00:40:46] The business owner loses out from not having you involved in that piece is it is the value that you can deliver because the perception of value is, is breaks into two to two camps. One is the pain that they'll, um, experience. If they work with. Compared with the pain that they'll experience, if they don't work with you, that conversation has to be had.
[00:41:08] Um, and then the other conversation is the upside benefit of working with you and the upside benefit of not working with you now, whether they work with you as an accountant and an FD and the support services, or whether they're, you're having a conversation with them about an equity. Then you still got to have an, obviously it's an equity state.
[00:41:26] You could have that, that conversation's going to take more than one conversation and you're going to have to get, um, uh, pursue that in a deep way, reasonably deep way and not be afraid of that. Um, but to a degree, what Luke's not lacking is a sense self belief that is worth it. Um, and sometimes people don't pursue those conversations because they go.
[00:41:51] Do we do we want to do it is one question. Do we want to be that in our client's world? Because it could be a distraction from the core business that you're building as an accountant and an FD, you know, because of that equity piece and as a pound of flesh net maybe needed for, uh, for, for that level of work.
[00:42:10] Um, but what loop's been able to do is do that and divest himself of lots of other words. Uh, and grow that side of his business, but you also got issues around scaling that as well, which, you know, you've already hinted up because it's got to have the right standard of person to do that sort of work. Um, but interesting that we have a pricing conversation and it's, you know, how does Glenn value what he's worth.
[00:42:36] Um, and the more and more you do this intrinsically you get more and more valuable, but how do you demonstrate that to your clients in a human way so that they feel is that they agree with you becomes
[00:42:48] Glenn Martin: [00:42:48] a big question, isn't it? It is. I mean, like I say, it's obviously it needs to, it needs to go through every member of your team as well.
[00:42:55] And that we know that they're having the same conversations. They, you know, it's not just about providing the service. Uh, for a, for a minimum fee or avoid receiving fines, you know, and it's what you're doing, what you're doing beyond that, you know, and that's why we always try to put a lot of extras into what we do to try and move, keep moving the face forward all the time.
[00:43:15] So, you know, it isn't, you know, if we're doing your payroll, we will make sure all of your HR stuff is around it sort correctly. Um, and to give so that our services is the best payroll service we can give against. Uh, bureau where they're going to charge you three quid, a pair slip, and your different passengers you pay what every week.
[00:43:36] Um, and like I said, the bit, I guess, from the value I bring is in the result in that by slot of a lot of what we do want one to be scale of a lot, often, often that's something I struggled with as well as trying to standardize what I do, because I think too much, what I do is be sport to each individual client.
[00:43:58] And I would like. I would like to maybe offers at a lower level to more people live. You know what I mean? Is it because it's to be sport and it's just hard to scale and it's hard to manage because everything is built for each client. Um, and like I said, ultimately, the results we can give all of our grit, we've had some great results and it's this sort of case study type of thing where you're waiting to see.
[00:44:23] This is a guy who's in recruitment. This is where he was, this is the journey we've took him on. And this is where he's at now, more than happy to put you in to have a conversation. Um, but that's, you know, that start, that is the value of what you do is that, is that result. You know, if, if you, he went from being, you know, you have no information could make decisions.
[00:44:40] He's plateaued, he's from out. Now. He's got stuff he's looking forward. He's grown 20% this year. And that's, that's the sort of stuff that we can bring in really. But again, It is that conversation and it's getting, it's getting the other side, understand what you're doing. And I think you've got to do that by regularly talking to people.
[00:44:59] So the norm, because the biggest mistake we made to last year was just doing things. You know, it was the easiest thing in the world last year was when somebody ran out, I was quite a letter from Tuck's people just send it over, we'll sign it off. And that was the. Because we were so busy, we just did slip it without traps.
[00:45:16] Or you need to constantly say, well, this is what's happened. This is where we were, and this is what we've done. So that's the, the movement is the value we've provided. So, I mean, we're just doing an exercise at the minute about and up the Corvid work. So w were written it like 2.1 billion pound in fellow claims done far less than a hundred clients, you know?
[00:45:38] So all we keep like a value register for each person. When we do it, you know, do an R and D claim with somebody that's so much money recovered. Obviously there's been loads of value through the COVID stuff to collect the people. It's just, when we are doing the fair reviews, it's, it's just a good thing to have with you when you can say, well, actually we've done all the compliance stuff, all that's been done, and this is the extra things we've identified for the year.
[00:46:02] So yes, we've charged you this, but we've made your 10,000 pounds worth of savings or whatever. Um, so that's, that's useful too. We introduced in the last couple of years that there's the value registered.
[00:46:12] Paul Shrimpling: [00:46:12] Well, why can't I see any reference to that
[00:46:14] Glenn Martin: [00:46:14] on your website? Because the new websites hasn't gone up yet and the old, the old one it's been sat for about 12 months and they, so, right.
[00:46:23] Okay. Okay.
[00:46:25] Paul Shrimpling: [00:46:25] All right. So, um, I'll ask a better question than that one. Cause everyone responds to, well, we've got new websites coming. Yay. All right. Okay. Um, we've all got new website coming. Um, I don't mean to be disingenuous then. Does it put it as a regular bank spec again? Because we can never quite get there.
[00:46:39] Can we, um, I'm guilty of that, by the way, where I was, I had a new website going live at the end of June and it didn't happen because it just the project, it just got bigger and bigger. Um, what, um, what assets have you got that actually demonstrate the, the case study story success of the firms that you've worked with, whether it be during the last two years or since you started the
[00:47:03] Glenn Martin: [00:47:03] business.
[00:47:04] So we've got, we've just. Getting filler. Now, some one-on-one case studies with our clients, we've used it, the source of the social media issue. I mentioned before, they've obviously we're just a bit of a trade off with some work with them. So they've, they've sort of
[00:47:18] Paul Shrimpling: [00:47:18] taken an equity stake in your
[00:47:19] Glenn Martin: [00:47:19] business.
[00:47:19] I think not quite
[00:47:25] good map. And so, yeah, so just to be honest, that was something that was, was supposed to happen a year or so ago, but with lockdowns or whatever it didn't. And so it was just, just, I just think couldn't be great because one of the things that, I mean, Martin, Martin had some that are not great at, I mean, I understand, you know, I've worked in business where we successfully might have a business, but it starts with a greatly understand.
[00:47:47] I don't understand all the metrics around social media sometimes, but what I do or what I dislike around social media is I think a lot of people are following. The naked unqualified statements where people will stand up and say, you know, uh, we signed up 30 clients this week and I'm just, we're the best at this are we do this, but they'll, you know, are aware of the cost that we're a proactive accountant where everybody, everybody seems to be different.
[00:48:14] And everybody tells me, pull out the unqualified statements. So what we want to do is just put a bit of meat on the boards and say, well, actually, this is what we've done. Here's a case study of what. Um, and you know, it, isn't just social media waffle it's, it's, it's a real case. Um,
[00:48:32] Paul Shrimpling: [00:48:32] brilliant, brilliant. So that, that emphasis on building a portfolio of proof is what you build in Glen.
[00:48:41] So statistical proof from your, what you call the value. Story proof from the things that you've done with clients. Uh, and, and actually it pays to be an, or rather paced to ensure that the hero of the story is the client, not you, the firm. Yeah, because most case studies are badly done because they make the accountant out to be really smart.
[00:49:05] When actually, you know, if you think of it in a story context, Um, the hero of, um, star wars in new hope is Luke Skywalker. It's not Obi wan Kenobi and it's can you see us? There's, there's a role that the accountant plays, which is more Obi wan Kenobi than it is Luke Skywalker, Luke, Skywalker's the business owner and I'm building, I used to call it a skip full of proof.
[00:49:29] So, cause the more you've got that, that in itself tells a tale, but it's that portfolio of proof, which is around statistics story. Guarantees and testimonials, which is, you know, they're, they're now almost overused, but still, still relevant. Um, and it's, it's um, that in itself exposed through your website, through your social media challenge and so forth is far better than telling people what the, the new tax regime is, or that changes or this on furlough.
[00:50:00] And so on, that stuff has to happen. But it's get the stories out there. So it sounds as though you're on that journey already. Um, but be absolutely certain that when you watch those videos, which you then turn into PDFs as well, which are easily accessible for people who don't want to watch videos. Um, the hero of the story is the client, not you in your firm.
[00:50:21] Yeah. It's uh, we've um, I've got, uh, I'll share with you a, um, a bite-size, uh, business breakthrough report that we write on an occasional basis. Uh, every quarter. And I've got to around proof. So I'll share those with you as a consequence of this discussion, because it's a short read cup of tea. You'll love them.
[00:50:38] And then you go home right now. I can see how this is going to help build the marketing model for you. Um, that was really good to have that conversation, but I'm really keen on this. Um, what this set value register looks like when it goes on your website. So let me know if you can drop me a note on the website.
[00:50:56] Um, but there's, um, you know, there's four forms of proof case studies, testimonials statistics. And guarantees that's the, which is another big conversation. And some firms have done really well with the guarantee piece. Some firms get very scared about it, but actually, um, they shouldn't be, um, there's a bite-sized report on that as well.
[00:51:19] If you're interested, I can share that with you. Um, cool. So there's been a really healthy discussion at Glenda. I really appreciate you taking time out and sharing so much insight of everything we've covered off today. Is there anything that you've gone well, that's, that's good for us that you're going to take out of our conversation, that side of the rear reminder of stuff you did well in the past or signposting something for the future.
[00:51:43] What, what's the one thing of. Uh, within our conversation today that stood out for you as being, Ooh, I need
[00:51:48] Glenn Martin: [00:51:48] to do something with that. I think, I think in, in general, we just need to do more of the Shelton about what we do, because it is obviously because we only worked with a small group of people, I guess, that we probably don't shout about it enough.
[00:52:01] And don't shout about the results we get. And yes. I mean, obviously our clients will talk to other people, but I think, um, we may be a little bit too reserved on things and I think that's something we want to change. And like you said, it's just about understanding the social media stuff more and what.
[00:52:18] Gets it out there. What's genuine. Cause I always think, like I say, I just think that at the minute there's a lot of waffle and a lot of stuff. That's just generic, generic,
[00:52:27] Paul Shrimpling: [00:52:27] fluffy golf. That
[00:52:28] Glenn Martin: [00:52:28] is two to do less of it, but just quality with what we've done in other states. Um, we, I've got some good stories, really that a stick we're going to just start pushing those out and just, you know, let me see here.
[00:52:39] This is, you know, this is. This is where the business was, where it is now, and we've helped along that journey. And that's a great message, I think, and it's a genuine one as well, and it's, you know, it's quantifiable behind. So that's what we want to do. And really w
[00:52:52] Paul Shrimpling: [00:52:52] w what stood out for me is your, um, prickliness, if you will, around lots of people are saying stuff, put their unqualified statements.
[00:53:01] You know, back it up with some evidence. And then, um, then it'll, it'll stack up, um, to finish Glen, I just go, uh, which industries are the big story industries
[00:53:13] Glenn Martin: [00:53:13] I'm looking for me. I think it's a con there'll be the e-commerce stuff. Well,
[00:53:18] Paul Shrimpling: [00:53:18] potentially, but in fact, just, um, books, how many books are sold every year?
[00:53:24] Millions of them. Why? Because they've got good stories, uh, films. What does the film industry do in terms of total turnover in a year, billions and actually music, as much as there's the, there's the, um, the mute, the sounds, there's also the stories within the songs and you go look that humans get hooked by stories and accountants don't tell good enough stories.
[00:53:55] Um, and it's social media is the channel of distribution. What we're going to distribute, blah, blah, fluffy golf, or I would, are we going to distribute some really great stories snippet on there, snippet on that snippet on the other. And that's um, if, um, if that's what stood out from this discussion today, then now you're absolutely plowing the right flora from a lead gen lead conversion uplift.
[00:54:19] Um, but I'd also argue that, um, because. Glenn Martin within Avion, Martin is such a finite resource. Um, you might, uh, you might be a little bit braver on pricing cause you're, um, you're so finite, you know, like a diamond there's lots
[00:54:35] Glenn Martin: [00:54:35] of diamonds, but there's, I'm not a hundred percent, a hundred percent it's it is just that it's that journey that we've been on where, you know, like I say, initially it was wrong.
[00:54:44] We started off with the wrong, this initial tote of survival. And it's obviously it's as you're transitioning from that to say, well, actually absent survived now. Now. The, the, the rewards of it really, I guess.
[00:54:55] Paul Shrimpling: [00:54:55] And, and arguably the stories will demonstrate that you've earned the right. And so can you see how, if you capture those stories?
[00:55:02] Yeah. Wow. We really are quite good at this. Uh, by the way we charged
[00:55:06] Glenn Martin: [00:55:06] this and that's
[00:55:08] Paul Shrimpling: [00:55:08] the payoff to your firm is your business is you don't have this pain and you have this upside. And then all of a sudden we're in a value conversation, which is often that something that gets lost in the pricing piece, whether you use practice ignition or go proposal, or any of the others for that matter, um, Glenn, you've been brilliant.
[00:55:26] Really appreciate you taking time out. Thank you very, very much.
The human aspect within Avery Martin
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