This is podcast five of five of the ACCA strategy series.
What do you do to make sure you build a successful strategy for your accountancy firm?
Well, you've got to both recognise, acknowledge and respond to the inevitable trends that are impacting on your firm, on the profession and perhaps also on your customers too.
It's not just about responding to the changes... it's also about building strategy on the things that are stable in time.
In this podcast, you'll hear from Emily Inman and Stephen Pell, two owners of two different firms in two different niche markets talking about their insights and knowledge about the three things stable in time.
You'll hear them discuss the inevitable trends facing their niche, as well as the inevitable trends that are facing the accountancy profession.
I hope you enjoy the podcast.
"This foundational strategic principle is something that doesn't shift, it is solid, no matter what happens in the accounting industry or the niche that you're operating in.
"It creates a stability - like having specific pillars that hold up what you're doing.
"I think that's an outstanding way to sort of think about it. "
Connect with Stephen
Connect with Emily
Connect with Paul
TRANSCRIPT - unedited
Paul Shrimpling: [00:00:00] This is podcast five of five of the ACCA strategy series. Welcome to the humanized, the numbers podcast, series leaders, managers, and owners of ambitious accounting firms, sharing insights, successes, and issues that will challenge you and connect you and your firm to the ways and means of transforming your firms results.
Stephen Pell: [00:00:25] This foundational strategic principle that, you know, something that doesn't shift something that, that, you know, that, that is solid, no matter what happens in the industry or what happens in the accounting industry and sort of the, the niche that you're operating in and having something, you know, like having three pillars that are four pillars that hold up what you're doing.
I think that's a, that's an outstanding way to sort of think about it. What do you
Paul Shrimpling: [00:00:50] do to make sure you build a successful strategy for your accountancy firm? Well, you've got to both recognize, acknowledge and respond to the inevitable trends that are impacting on your firm on the profession and perhaps even on your customers too, but it's not just about responding to the changes.
It's also about building strategy on the things that are stable in time. On this podcast, you'll hear from Emily Inman and Stephen Pell, two owners of two different firms in two different niche markets talking about their insights. It's their knowledge about the three things stable in time and the inevitable trends facing their niche, as well as the inevitable trends that are facing the accountancy profession.
Let's go to the interview now.
Emily Inman: [00:01:44] Yeah. So I'm Emily Inman. My firm is called Zynct. We're quite new. We started April, 2019. And we're still quite small. There's four of us. And we're growing quite fast, which is, which has been good. And we focus on construction predominantly firms from 1 million to 10 million turnover.
Paul Shrimpling: [00:02:05] Right. So, what, what was it that prompted you to focusing on construction? Emily? Was that from the get-go or is that, that, that that happened naturally? Or was it, you know, did you set out to be very much in the construction industry?
Emily Inman: [00:02:16] So it came about through a marketing niche, right. As advised by a famous accounting marketing advisor.
But it's something that had been in the back of my mind anyway, because when I used to manage a previous practice, I just felt that we were very busy keeping on top of everything. And it was, it was very difficult to do so. It was something that I had already considered And it just, it just felt the natural thing to do.
And also in my local area half the businesses are construction businesses, right?
Paul Shrimpling: [00:02:48] So it was a natural thing to do, given where you're located. Where, where are you, Emily? Where,
Emily Inman: [00:02:53] where is that? We're on the border of east London and Essex.
Paul Shrimpling: [00:02:57] Right?
Emily Inman: [00:02:59] Brilliant. Yeah, so just in the natural thing to do, also, I felt that they have a lot of compliance and they have CIS and all sorts of things.
And now there's that reverse charge and quite often accountants, are they weren't their preferred choice of client. Yeah. I heard that, so, you know, my partner that I used to work for, he, he didn't want to take them on tour. So I just felt, they've kind of had a lot of requirements and not a lot of support.
Paul Shrimpling: [00:03:25] Right. And even if there were supported maybe reluctantly, which is if you're actively marketing into that sector would give you a big advantage. Wouldn't it? So how many, how many construction clients have you now got then? Two years in, I guess.
Emily Inman: [00:03:36] Yeah. So we've got about a hundred various sizes. So some of them are quite big jobs that we have full-time personnel and others you know, a bit smaller and growing.
And so, yeah.
Paul Shrimpling: [00:03:50] Brilliant. Brilliant. So started to 2019 for people, a hundred clients specific to the construction sector. Fantastic. Steven, do you want to give us a little bit of background on your film please?
Stephen Pell: [00:04:01] Yeah. So I'm a, co-founder in a business called iconic. Its previous incarnation was pedal artists which is the firm that I set up in.
Summer 2015 and started it with zero clients and and a big idea and a big dream. Right. And I decided right from the get, go to specialize in working in with music artists, I had experienced working in the music industry and I'd been in bands before. And it kind of felt like I knew what I was talking about when it came to sort of connected with people in industry.
Right. And. Sort of fast forward five years, we grew to a team of about six people. Yep. We were headquartered in London. And sort of started this year. We merged with a from out based out in New York, a bit of a similar size in New York, in New York here. All right. So, yeah, so I kind of is now you know, we're very U S UK focused in, in, in, you know, as, again, as part of our, our strategic development, that sort of the global positioning was really important for us.
Yeah. But that's basically, we're now a team of what are we 12 people. Together as working remotely. And I guess we, you know, we kind of say that we, we have sort of a presence in LA, New York and London. And yet we are clients, you know, we, we provide very specific accounting solutions to people in the music industry, the entertainment industry, a bit more widely now.
So in, in film and TV, yeah. And it's mainly the sort of creative personalities. That we have to work with. And I suppose we kind of see ourselves as a niche within a niche when it comes to it, because we, you know, the same industry is huge and we only sort of occupy a very tiny part of that representing the people and the personalities that sort of drive the creativity within that.
Yeah. And yeah, we kind of feel that I'm not as sure as very deep. Working with them and we speak the same language. But what's I suppose, a little bit different. And what I love about what we do is our services, business management driven, and that's a very sort of us centric model, which is basically we take care of things for you.
Right. Whatever, whatever, whatever they look like from a financial perspective. And it's very different to how I was taught to be an accountant and how to deal with things from a you know, from a sort of a trained and the theoretical perspective from a little more rustic. Yeah. Yeah. And it basically means that we have to mandate a stack of services and what we do.
So we have to mandate things like bookkeeping and we have to mandate things like, what do you mean when you say you have to mandate?
Paul Shrimpling: [00:06:28] What
Stephen Pell: [00:06:29] exactly do you mean? They have to have it so we can't deliver a service. They have it. Well, yes, right? Yeah. Incest. And it means that basically they, you know, we, we can't deliver the outcome that they need.
Yeah. Unless we do a certain, you know, deliver a certain set of services to them. Yes. But obviously we can't explain it in that way. They have very specific needs our clients they, they struggle to understand finances. They need someone to coach and mentor them a bit more than perhaps the, you know, the usual business owners that I perhaps trained working with.
Yeah. They're creative. They're very passionate. They're quite disorganized. They like to travel. They're spontaneous. They're aloof. They're laid back. Yeah. We've had to been an accountant then. Yes. Got to create something that, that caters to that. And actually all the stuff that we want to do as accountants, like KPI reporting and all the, all the kind of cool stuff.
It doesn't mean anything to them and it's just, you know, we have to go back to basics and deliver well on that. Yeah. And that's kind of the foundation to, to yeah. Which is for
Paul Shrimpling: [00:07:31] me, Steven. You know, there's podcasts, the biggest series humanize the numbers is, you know, there's probably no one working harder at humanizing the numbers than, you know, accountants like you, who are serving that creative edge of the, the industries.
Would you take issue with that? Emily, do you think gets there are similar things at play when working with construction clients. I, in terms of that, humanist don't know what they're doing. And so on, as far as numbers are concerned, what they do around the building side or am I I'm jumping too?
Emily Inman: [00:07:58] It's usually the opposite.
They're quite astute on these things and they have to control their projects very tightly. There there's. Every time I look at it, I'm always amazed at how much goes into one project, but the amount of different trades, the amount of. And different materials, all these components and all different professionals.
And then I have to manage and juggle lots of balls at the same time. Yeah. And you know, where they have long projects that they work on, their budgets are set, their price is set and they have to really control their costs. Otherwise it it's directly impacts their profit margin. So actually mine are quite on the ball.
And then typically quite organized because they are juggling. A lot of different elements. So, so they
Paul Shrimpling: [00:08:45] respond quite well to the, the, the, the clarity around KPIs to take, you know, the, the polar opposite view to Steven there.
Emily Inman: [00:08:52] Yeah. So I guess their KPIs are pretty much set in advance once they've won.
Their contract because it's, you know, predetermined and from the profit margin that they're going to get, they're going to recover from that that project. So it's making sure really from that point on it's it's cost control and as well, they have problems with getting payments in. Stage payments and things like that.
And they have to apply like, especially subcontractors, they have to apply. And the quantity surveyors might not sign off that amount of work. So it's kind of keeping track, keeping track of a lot of things. So I think
Paul Shrimpling: [00:09:26] if we if we were to set out to have almost two polar opposite perspectives, the music industry and the construction industry would have been.
Probably been as good as we could get. So this, that makes this, this conversation, this podcast really quite valuable, hopefully. So w we're here to to strategy and being successful at strategically driving our firms, you know, you, your firms, Steven, Emily, you and me, mine. And whoever's listening to this.
They're going to be wanting to look around what is this strategy thing about now we've already covered off in this series. The the big picture stuff around personal goals, purpose, vision, and, and the longer term perspective and the more human elements around behavioral values and standards and connecting those values and purpose with the all the stakeholders of the business.
You know, the, the, the team, the clients may be community. And obviously the, the, the business owners too We are now going to have this conversation around it, if we, if you, if we all ignore the trends that are facing our industry, now your industry, Steve and Emily is accountancy. But I want to just part that for a minute and just see if I can get you to climb into the shoes of your clients.
And walk in their shoes around the, what are the key trends that are impacting on the construction industry, Emily and the same. Steven, what are the key trends that are impacting on the music industry? So Emily, we'll get you to kick off first and, you know, we may start to install around this conversation, but it'll open up as we, as we get into it.
What are your first thoughts on that? Emily? What are the key trends that the construction industry are having to deal with now?
Emily Inman: [00:11:09] So in terms of their kind of financial yeah. Impact. So I would say there's increased regulation on the main contractors to become responsible for the behavior of their subcontractors.
So, this is part of why they've bought in the fact, the first charge, because they're pushing their compliance onto the main contractors and the CIS and that kind of thing. So that's the kind of regulatory, financial trend we're seeing. Profit margins on the whole, in the industry are squeezing and that's due to increased costs of labor and increased cost of materials.
Especially over the last year or two where we've had Brexit. And the pandemic during the pandemic, we saw an increased cost of timber and other materials. So that squeezed the profits Brexit and the pandemic as well as also a decreased labor supply. So that pushes price of labor up as well.
Yeah, so those things have been, yeah, definitely a trend over the last. Yeah,
Paul Shrimpling: [00:12:10] 18 months or so. And if, if I asked you to take a longer-term perspective, so we were to walk forward, say five years. What, what things do you think are going to come to bear Brook brought to bear on the construction industry with that longer-term view?
Well, what are your thoughts on that?
Emily Inman: [00:12:26] Well, I think there's a big push for environmentally friendly solutions. And we're seeing that with some of our clients now where they're investing money To improve their construction processes. So they're more environmentally friendly. And so that would be a big, a big trend.
And obviously there's incentives there for them to do that.
Paul Shrimpling: [00:12:46] Is that Ron? Okay. What these government incentives there. So,
Emily Inman: [00:12:50] yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So there's all the R and D tax incentives. There's also rates, lower VAT rates and, and things like that. Yeah. On the energy efficiency materials. And so I think we'll see a lot more of that.
I do get a lot more inquiries from, from people who are taking on EK builds and, and things like
Paul Shrimpling: [00:13:10] that. Right. So th th th there's a, there's a big trend, a macro trend, if you will then on, on environment, what else?
Emily Inman: [00:13:19] So, yeah, so they increase probably the trend. Again, increased trend on compliance of main contractors.
There's been a couple of scary VAT cases with main contractors being held responsible for the behavior of their subcontractors and losing our significant amounts of money. Because they can't recover the input VAT and things like that. So we're seeing a lot more increased compliance and not being pushed on which, which I think is probably quite a, quite a good thing.
And it will be once they've got kind of used to it. Yeah. So yeah, I think that trend will continue to increase.
Paul Shrimpling: [00:13:52] Right. And presumably then that's changing the sort of cultural relationship between sub-contractors and, and the main contractor Emily, what, what what's happening in terms of the way people are working together?
Is there, is there any sense that, that, you know, the, the, the relationship management of, of, of things is trending in a particular way? And that's a bit of a vague question I'm just trying I'm haunting for. Cause I don't know the sector tour. I was just wondering if there's anything, a foot there.
Emily Inman: [00:14:18] I wouldn't have said so necessarily because they are quite streets and they do, you know, the main contractor will use quantitative bias to check the value of the work done to date and things like that.
Yeah, I don't, yeah, I think that's quite, yeah. They're quite on that already. I don't see that will change anymore because it's kind of, cause they are already very astute in those areas. Right. I think they would tend to work quite closely together. And it doesn't seem to be any problems that I can't, you know, I can't really in fishes, any more trends in that kind of
Paul Shrimpling: [00:14:46] respect assumably that that labor supply piece is going to continue to be an issue for the unit long, not just the short term, the long-term because of Brexit.
And therefore they're going to have to factor that into what what what's involved in building costs going forward. So there's going to be a cost pressure is the, not in the, in the sector of I'm misunderstood that.
Emily Inman: [00:15:06] No, that's, that's what I would expect. And I think we've seen a price increase there already and yeah.
Yeah. You know, it w it probably would continue to increase.
Paul Shrimpling: [00:15:16] But you mentioned earlier, there's, there's actual price pressure from the customer down. So we've got cost pressure up and price pressure from the the top. Where's the give on this what's is w w w w w what, what are you seeing as that that's going to enable your clients to continue to be successful in what they're doing?
Something's got to give there some way somehow isn't there.
Emily Inman: [00:15:39] Yeah. So I guess it's, you know, it's the tendering process, isn't it? And that they go through and in a way that kind of drives the prices down. There's also big issues with retentions and a main contract is holding onto attentions. And I know the government are looking to try and change that.
So they're aiming to remove all retentions by 2025. So I think that will be really positive. Cause cause you're right there, there is a pinch point and that often falls onto the subcontractor and they are lots of risk. And especially if you know that they're paying out a lot of labor and material costs.
Upfront before they get the stage payments coming through and they can't be certain on the amounts and when they're going to come in. So it does put a lot of risk on their shoulders and with the retentions as well. And,
Paul Shrimpling: [00:16:31] Sorry, Emily, would you just explain what, what do you mean by retentions?
Emily Inman: [00:16:35] So main contractors when they work with a specialist, subcontractor will often with hold a percentage. It's normally agreed in the contract at the beginning, but it's usually around 5%. And they will hold that. Of every application for payment. So usually the process is they'll, they'll apply for their payments on a regular basis, monthly or quarterly or whatever the agreement is.
Yeah. And the main contractors will withhold that 5% retention. Plus they will have their quantity surveyor assess the value of the work done to date. So then there might be an amount withheld for that as well, if they don't agree the value of work done to date. Yeah. Yep. And then retentions are held across the length of a P project, which could be years.
And then they have to, you know, kind of apply to get that retention back. And those retention payments are quite difficult because, but the profit margins are tight anyway, and they've got cashflow from spending it all up front. It can get, it can become tight and it does cause Firms to go under.
So that's why the government, again, involved to try and remove the
Paul Shrimpling: [00:17:36] retention piece. Right. So it's interesting to see from it. If we're looking at that sector, your sector, your niche strategically, we're having a trends conversation, but what it's doing is signposting the core challenges in the sector. And if they, you know, if they're getting progressively worse than your clients, don't tackle them, then essentially that their world's going to get tougher and tougher if just from a profit margin perspective.
And it's that what you've done brilliantly there, Emily is just signposts. The impact of right. Let's look at the key trends and the impact it's going to have on. That business, that construction business which will by definition point to both internal and external challenges, which is the another part of the, you know, strategic mix.
Because if you build strategy and it doesn't deal with the difficulties that you're going to face, then it's just ivory tower strategy, which isn't worth anything to anybody. Is it. Thank you very much, Jeremy. That was brilliant. So Steven what's let's have a look at the, the, the, the, the key trends facing the music industry, which has been in profound flux for a long time.
I know this because one of my oldest friends, the leader of a, a record company and I've got two sons who are actually performers. So this one's close to my heart. So what trends are you seeing in the sector that you serve? For the last
Stephen Pell: [00:18:48] well, I mean, certainly it, when I, when I sort of first started set up my firm, there was a S a real confidence in a recovery happening, right.
With the sort of the, the streaming platforms launching. Yeah. And sort of you know, that there was a, sort of a real feeling that things are sort of moving in the right direction and they did. And actually in line with that, the live music industry just grew and grew and grew over the past five years and would have continued to do so if it hadn't been for obviously a little virus.
Yeah. Yeah. And so obviously I, you know, I, I've got no doubt that that will come back. And actually what I'm seeing now is that, you know, all of that, not all of them, but a lot of the contracts that were in place a year ago are actually now still being honored. Right. And the artists are getting those back right.
And actually they're trying to get more shows in, you know, to sort of make up for lost time. So there is a bit of a bounce back, but what that's happening and what that's creating is there's, there's more artists now than there was for the amount of shows that are available. Yeah. And so that's create creating downward pressure on the, on the prices, in their show fees and the contracts.
Right. Okay. Which is obviously having a knock-on effect to, you know, the income, the profits, they thought they were going to be earning. And so the, you know, there's a bit more power in the hands of the agents rather than the artists, when it comes to negotiation, the deals around. That the live performance fees, for example.
But I've got no doubt that over the next few years, that will, that will, you know, even itself settle itself down in itself out and we'll be back and the festivals will be back and, you know, the music industry will be booming again. And that's obviously critical. To what we do as well. You know, we sort of the live music industry and that the business management around that is, is very much wrapped into our service.
Yeah. Another sort of a key trend that I've noticed over the past five years since the sort of the launch of the streaming services, it's meant that artists there's more artists now that can self release because the barriers to entry. To, to the market reduced it doesn't cost much to record and release.
You know, there's all these aggregators and platforms out there that, you know, you, you just play, pay a flat fee and you can release your music. And suddenly you're getting these artists that are coming overnight. Superstars from, you know, what they're doing on YouTube or, or tech talk. And they, you know, and they're not signed to a record label, they've got nothing behind them.
They're just, you know, making music in their bedroom. And, you know, they, they suddenly got careers and a million pounds in their bank account and without, you know, and so this is happening to more and more artists,
Paul Shrimpling: [00:21:18] isn't that a rarity is that the exception that proves the rule that most aren't.
Stephen Pell: [00:21:23] Yes. Yes.
But then if you look at what the, if you look at the trend, there's more, there's more artists sort of making a living, I suppose now from their music. And they have the ability to, because they don't have the cost of the overheads. They're not signed into, into record deals, which give them an advance that then take away their, you know, their future earning power.
And so they can last longer, they can then reinvest their music and they've gone careers so that they can then build it. And then they've got more bargaining power when it comes to signing a record deal. So. That's, that's only something that's really been made possible in the last five years or so because of the, the fact that these streaming services have popped up and put money back into their pockets.
Paul Shrimpling: [00:22:00] You, you touched on, there's a power shift from artists to agent there's. You know, if I understand the sector, there's been a, you know, you've got the, the massive, you know, three massive record labels, you know, Sony UMG, I don't want whatever the other one is. Is, is there are we going from this big macro industry to one which is got lots and lots and lots of more different independent, you know, there's always been indeed independent labels.
Is, is, is that a trend that's that's building or am I, am I just a bit of an old footy duty talking about an old industry as opposed to what's going on in Tik TOK in the sector?
Stephen Pell: [00:22:35] No, you're quite right. That there are a lot more in it though. I mean, From my perspective, there are a lot of independent record labels that are starting up because it's so easy to do so now it's almost, you know, you just plug into something and all that you have to do is the marketing.
And if you've got the network and the assets, then you're a record label. That's it. So it's very easy to take it to market now. But actually what I'm seeing is that these artists are the record labels themselves. So they're not releasing other people. They are the record label. And that's what we're kind of seeing this ecosystem of the, sort of the, sort of the cottage industry of being a creator and creating these digital assets.
Yes. Which, you know, which can scale very quickly and can transcend international boundaries and you can, and, you know, find yourself six months later, ending up on a, on a worldwide tour. You know? Yeah. So it happens so, so quickly. And, and that's, that's a pro perhaps a challenge that I think I, you know, I, I wasn't around in the sixties and seventies, you know, when the industry was old school, but you know, careers from what I've seen, you know, I fact, I, I was talking to my business partner of the day about some of the fee.
He was I think one client, we charged $200 a year and now I think it's I think we changing like $10,000 a month. For the same client, the same claim and it's, and it's, you know, that's just because of the trajectory of the, of the clients in the cloud services that we need. You know, and, and that's within a couple of years.
Yeah. So it's it, you know, that's, that's made possible by, by these sort of changes. And I think that's only going to, with technology and the speed of change and being able to get. Data yeah. Into people's hands. Yeah. And the speed of which that happens, you know, the speed at which you can get a song played from Spotify.
And from that song, then being paid and put into the client's bank account. Yeah. You know, the, the major record labels and all these technology companies are doing their best to out-compete each other to get that done as quick as possible. And that's the train change that's driving. The, the, sort of the, the music industry who can beat, who, who can pay the quickest and who can be the most artist friendly.
Yeah. Yeah. And then that, that creates challenges for us as accountants of course, because we need to be able to map that. Yeah. And we need to be able to aggregate that and we need to report that back and verify it. Make sure it's correct. Yeah. And the other thing to add onto that with the sort of the digital changes in the music industry, particularly to artists is cryptocurrency.
Right and NFTs and how it's such a huge part that is now playing really. And this is only something that's really happened in the last few months. Yeah. But our clients are now w there's two separate things here, but they would have been awarded cryptocurrency for going onto a platform, like a version of Spotify in the early days.
Yeah. And now, you know, it's worth huge amounts of money that they got free, you know? And so, and now they're dealing with these kinds of currencies and yeah. At the, you know, they're trading assets yes. Through, through these kinds of things as well. So this is a huge
Paul Shrimpling: [00:25:23] shift. Yes. In a word, isn't it shift?
Cause that's that the trend, but it's like you say shift and it's like, actually we're in a completely different world once it has shifted.
Stephen Pell: [00:25:33] Yeah. Because I think with the trend, you can map it and you can see it. Yeah. But this happened, I mean, you know, pretty much over the last few weeks or months. Yes. And it's kind of just hit, it's just sort of hit us in the face and you know, we need to get on
Paul Shrimpling: [00:25:46] top of that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's Emily, have you seen anything in and around the cryptocurrencies in the construction market or was that just, that's just not, that's a no show in your sector. Not for us yet. All right. So there's something that's showing up in the general media. But then it's having an impact on the music industry, which is, you know, to use your language.
Stephen's more of a cottage industry, but all of a sudden cryptocurrencies are showing up in that world as opposed to the construction industry where there's big money projects and it's not it's not showing it's it's facia in that sector. That's interesting. Okay. So, so we've had two, two conversations there just to in you know, 10 minutes or so 15 minutes each around the key trends in those sectors, which if people in those respective sectors, the construction sector and the music sector ignore them, then common sense says that they're going to be on a Rocky road to ruin aren't.
They it's just, you know, black and white as that. So as to accountancy firms, what do you think the key trends are facing the accountancy profession? That we've got to be aware of and be reflected in our strategy for our firm.
This is pregnant, pause and tumbleweed. Isn't it slow. All right. I can, we can analyze another industry, but now, now let's look at ours or yours.
Emily Inman: [00:27:08] I think it's quite an exciting time in our industry at the moment. I think the technology now we will kind of it's standard. It enables us to work. With clients, you know, wherever they are.
So that means that we can work with clients who are more matched to us and our business, which helps us to, you know, work with construction firms all over the UK, not just in the local area, that when we started out. So that's that. I think is, is going to be a really interesting trend because I think it will allow accountants to work really closely with their clients.
Yeah. And the pandemic as well has helped us that because we've always been a virtual practice. We've never had a central office. But before the pandemic, you know, zoom was we had to kind of tell people how to use it and hope that they would and encourage them. But now it's standard. So it means that we can Now that our clients say to us, I'll just jump on a quick zoom.
And it means that we can really get involved with the problems that they're having, that they might you know, have, have an emergency. Yeah. Quite often cashflow related. Yeah. And we can just jump in and work with them. So it means that I, I feel that we can get a lot closer to their business and really support them more, give them what they need in that respect.
So I think it'd be really interesting to see. What people do with that, what other accountants do and
Paul Shrimpling: [00:28:26] yeah. Yeah, it it's absolutely right. I mean, isn't it, if you're you're in a niche and something like construction and geography would have been, if we walk back five years would have been. A big issue and that's got less and less over the last five years, but in the last 12 months, it's not vanished because it never does completely vanished, but it's mostly vanished.
So you you're able to deal with a construction firm in the UK and Scotland, just as well as one in Wales, just as well as one in, in east London. So yeah. That's a a shift rather as opposed to a trend, but it's a trend that firms will add or shift that firms will either respond to, or they won't respond to.
And it's interesting, I'm having lots of conversations with lots of firms about what are you doing to make sure that you've got eyeball to eyeball contact, not mobile, T-Mobile eyeball to eyeball contact, because like you say, you get much closer to your clients that way. And if they've got a thorny problem, they want to see you.
They don't want to just talk to you. And therefore you, you diminished the miles apart because you are eyeball to eyeball. So technology, yes connected with the pandemic equals zoom is a standard and most people can use it. Even my 82 year old mother can use it. If she watches this, she'll kill me for saying that.
My dad's just about mastered it, but he's still struggling. So there's that are we doing locally? Well, we do a national, or we do an international law that maybe there's a way, ways and means that that's trending so we can be relevant to any construction business, anywhere in the world. Maybe even Emily, Stephen, what are your thoughts?
What do you think is trending in our, our, your profession?
Stephen Pell: [00:29:55] Yeah, so I was, you know, okay. What Emily said and say, technology is driving our habits in, in how we're in, how we're working. It's, you know, the fact that, you know, The transactions pop up that he'd reconciled every day makes you do them every day or makes you want to do them every day and keep things up to date.
And it's his driving habits that perhaps we didn't have a few years ago when you, when you didn't have the technology driving this and, and making things a lot easier and it's changing the way that we do things it's changing. Our rhythms is changing. You know, how we, how we met, how our processes, how we think about which order certain processes go in it, it probably changes what we call our services as well.
Like what is bookkeeping now? Actually, it's, it's actually combined you a combination of many different processes into one, you know, it's not just, you know, there's a sort of the, the, the reconciling, you know, aspect of it. And then there's the transaction matching and the month end close and, you know, there's, it's, there's different parts to it and it, we kind of.
Think about it differently. And so there's a technology that's, that's driving this, driving that and I suppose as well that I guess the other trends, which is probably be happening in our firm is that now we're pretty much settled on the fact that we are a remote firm, right. Or, or a cloud, you know, a cloud, a hundred percent cloud remote.
I mean, it's, it's not something that's happened, you know, overnight is what we, it was intentional for us to be that but it was kind of been forced through the pandemic. And I think that's going to be the same as a general trend perhaps for a lot of firms. Yeah. But you know, now they've experienced the, sort of the working from home and they've had to, you know, make sure that it works and that, you know, and actually what we found is that we're more productive.
Well, we're, we're doing things better. You know, we are, you know, our communication is a lot better, you know, we, we, we, you know, we make more of an effort to, you know, to make sure that we are speaking with each other and, and doing things in the way that we need still, obviously, you know, we, we miss out on certain things by doing that, but yeah.
You know, it's, it's certainly a trend. It, it, that we've sort of risen to the challenge to, to try me
I guess sort of, yeah, that, they're sort of a, the main, I guess the other thing I would say trend wise is that things seem to be getting, it's probably something that every generation will say more and more complicated. Right. You know, the, the legislation, there's always a layer of legislation that gets added on to something, you know, we've had, we've had the, the Corona virus, you know, that there's going to be, you know, that's a whole layer of things has been added onto something that wasn't there before.
You know, and that's got, you know, huge consequences for all future legislation. That's going to be rolled out as a, as you know, as a result. And you know, same with the complexity thread technology. It brings that level of complexity, you know, our clients, you know, they, they, they don't really, they really care about the technology.
Yeah. They care about the outcome. We care about the technology, because that makes our job easier. And it's a trend for us, but I think we've got to not lose sight of what's important. Yeah. And we can get easily distracted and I'm very guilty of that. Right. You know, I think we're, we're sort of going back strategically and putting apart everything that we thought.
Works and actually putting it back in, streamlining it and make things more simple and just delivering an outcome that, you know, rather than, you know, something that looks like what we should be doing. Yeah.
Paul Shrimpling: [00:33:11] That's interesting. Cause there's this there is a tendency and if you look at virtually every website of every accountancy firm with a few exceptions, you'll see a list of services.
You won't see a list of outputs. You'll see a list of services which is connected to the technology that you using, as opposed to actually, we're here to resolve certain issues, deliver certain deliverables, outputs and, and getting a focus on that. But I guess it's strategically, because this is a strategy conversation, you go, oh, right.
What is it you use to drive a census to what. You're here to do. Why are you here? Well, I'm here to deliver a certain set of outputs, but to whom and for you too, that's relatively easy because you've got a really little crystal niche oriented view of your client banks off. If I asked you, well, who are you selling to?
You know, don't take you 30 seconds to get a really give me a really crystal picture as to who you're serving. You look to a general practice. They've got much harder job to do. On that you know, what's interesting is right at the beginning of the pandemic, about five weeks, six weeks into the first lockdown I spoke to someone I've worked with for a number of years, actually now a good friend accountancy firm their niche was the hospitality sector.
Not a good niche from an accountant's perspective because it essentially shut down. And he was he went. Pretty dark really quick and made loads of decisions because it was, you know, in inverted commas, a disaster. So there, there are downsides to the niche piece, depending on who knows what might happen out there like the pandemic.
If you can actually say like a pandemic, I don't know if that's actually makes no sense to anybody. But it, we had to do as your output comment though, I think, and I guess the question I'm driving to Steven is how, how do you determine what those outputs are?
Stephen Pell: [00:34:59] Yes, you're on track. Yeah. So, so I suppose it's outputs and outcomes.
It's making sure that you know, w we, we know very well what. You know, what keeps our clients awake at night. Right. We know exactly when, you know, we know exactly how we need to communicate to them, to be able to give them that peace of mind. And it's a big to get to give them that reassurance.
Yeah. We know how often we should be contacting them so that they don't feel anxious. We know when to be proactive when, when to take a step back when to sort of step in. Yeah. But it's also how much handholding do they need. And, you know, the way that we deliver our service to, for it to be scalable, we obviously have to have it.
We have, we have to deliver outcomes. We basically have a three, three options and they're basically three levels of outcome. Do you want us to take care of everything? Yeah. This is the top price. Yeah, we can do it. Yeah, we can, you know, you don't, we will, we'll check in, you know, once a week or once a month.
Yeah. You know, we've got your back. Yeah. Don't worry about it. This is premium. Yeah. Then the second outcome is okay, well that, you know, I need to know a bit more about what's going on. You know, I need to feel, you know, I'm going through a bit of a tough time, you know, I need this information this regularly.
Can we check in this often? Yeah. You know, I'm willing to do a little bit. For that, you know, I don't mind going in and, and, you know, not doing as often for example, but I still don't need. And then the next one is the sort of the base level being lighter, touch the lights, one being that, you know, we'll, you know, unless you, unless we do your bookkeeping, so that.
What drives your tax because, you know, we want to make sure that, you know, the tax taxes are covered. Yeah. That you're, you know, you're never gonna miss a tax payment and everything's filed properly that you've got enough money in your rainy day fund is what we call it. Or, you know, now might as well be the pandemic fund and prefer the rainy day fund.
Yeah. So do I, and, and, and also just making sure that we've sorted out the, sort of the, th th the compensation strategy. You know and that really they're the three things that are most important to, to our, to our clients. And it's w we deliver outcomes based on those and how much handholding they need.
Paul Shrimpling: [00:37:15] Okay. There's something I want to share, which is connected with the three things stable in time, which is the flip side to the inevitable trends, the things that are changing. There are some things that are really stable, but before we dive into that, Emily, I just want to talk about this outputs, this outcomes thing, you know, the outcomes focus.
What is it that signposts for you? What outcomes you're looking to deliver for your niche construction sector?
Emily Inman: [00:37:40] So I guess we're looking to. Make their processes easier because they are really complicated. Their bookkeeping is really complicated because they have a purchase orders and lots of components and lots of suppliers and lots of payroll.
So of Subi Ronson. The CIS, it's all really complicated and a lot going on. So we were trying to automate as much of that, that can be automated, but also to service it at the same time so that it all goes smoothly and everything's, you know, done properly. Cause obviously if you just leave it to automation, that's great, but it's not all going to come out right at the other end.
Yeah. So that's our focus. So that, that all goes through for, for our bigger clients that goes to daily. So that. The reporting and the, and the numbers are available daily. So if hard decisions, quick decisions need to be made they can be made. And that also all feeds through into the cashflow cashflow in industry is tight.
So cashflow, I guess, is, is the main focus. So it's making sure everything is up-to-date and and properly done so that the right decisions can be made. Yes. Brilliant. So that's probably about our key output. It
Paul Shrimpling: [00:38:54] sounds very different to Stevens isn't it does sound very different. Yeah. Which you'd expect in two very, very polar opposite sectors.
Emily Inman: [00:39:01] Yeah, I guess it's quite, it's a bit more process driven because of the volumes involved and the amount of you know, matching involved and things like that. But I was just going to say the other outcome is to, you know, to, to be close with the business owners. Cause they don't, they don't often know what, what it is they need.
I might not even ask. So, you know, as long as we're having those regular conversations about things, things come up and you know, we've normally got a solution or can do a workaround for something because although, although they're all in the same industry, they're very different. Yeah. Very different requirements.
Yeah. They might have. Different divisions doing different things and be set up in different ways. So it is quite, quite unique to each of our clients where they,
Paul Shrimpling: [00:39:42] yeah. And so what I've just heard you both say, though, there is what we need to do is get close and stay close depending on how close the client wants us to get.
And then if we connect that with the zoom thing, the eyeball to eyeball, but it means we can do it more regularly without having to spend too much time on the tube and trains and planes and cars. That's interesting. So let me, let me share the the flip side to the, sorry if I'm grimacing because I've broken my arm in the last week.
So I keep trying to use it as if it was normal and then realized that that doesn't work. Inevitable trends. So we've had so far, I've had this conversation about things are trending. You know, from five years ago, from a year ago, the pandemic Brexit and all the technology, political, economic, environmental trends impacting on our sectors in slightly different ways.
So strategy doesn't work on less. It reflects and responds and embraces those trends naturally. But th this I want to signpost a conversation that a journalist had with Jeff Bezos. So Jeff Bezos you know, founder and head of of, of Amazon and this journalist Jeff Bezos. So go on to Jeff.
What what's going to change over the next five, 10 years. And, and he responded well with, well, it's interesting. Everybody wants to know what's going to change over the next five, 10 years, but nobody wants to know what's going to be stable in time, over the next five to 10 years. And at Amazon, we build our strategy on three things stable in time, which I just thought slightly, you know, proper put a journalist in his in his pocket.
I think it was a male. Yeah. And it's like, and for Amazon, what stable in time is, and it didn't use the exact words that he said it in a slightly more cryptic way. But essentially he said, look, what stable in time for Amazon is it's lovers because we've got this vast collection of product, you know, it's huge.
It's cavernous. So that's number one. They love us because they know they can find anything. I've just been looking for an RFID radiator. Well, you know, Well, I just go to Amazon, you know? Well, yeah, but it sells books and CDs. Isn't it now? Well, I was streaming services now. Sorry, Steven. That was me stepping back in time.
So it's vast. Next is they know we'll deliver quickly. They love us because we'll deliver fast. We'll deliver tomorrow. If you're in certain cities, we'll deliver same day and that's, but not least they love us because they know we'll be price competitive. And Amazon are building all of their strategy pieces around.
Yes, they're reflecting and responding to inevitable trends, but they're very much have got themselves anchored to building from the stable platform, which is three things stable in time, which I think Stephen in a roundabout way is what you were trying to describe in terms of, you know, what, what keeps clients awake?
Well, if you can deliver outcomes that connected to that and give them peace of mind. Then, you know, you're, you're in the right territory and it's my challenge to you would be, and I just, I'm just going to give you a bit of space to think about it. What do you think in the music industry for you and your firm?
The three things stable are. In time for the music clients and then, you know, the same to you, Emily it's you know, to say yours is Emily is process-driven, it's about reducing stress around cash and stress around the complexity, making it easier for them. Cause he, you, you really are tapping into, ah, right.
If we can work out what our three things stable in time are your messaging. Your marketing messaging strategically gets crystal clear, which taps into people that fit exactly what you're good at. I think it's a really interesting piece. Don't you think with that? Jeff Bezos, three things stable in time.
Stephen let's come to you first. What do you think your three things stable in timer?
Stephen Pell: [00:43:17] So I've sort of scribbled down a couple. I mean I think the, sort of the, the, the structure and organization. We'll always need to be there for our clients, whatever the, whatever happens right. In the industry. Right.
There has to be a solid base. Yeah. You know, it's almost like you've got this, you know, th you know, the solid foundation and everything else sort of grows the spirals around it. And I think, you know, that's, that is why our clients come to us because they
Paul Shrimpling: [00:43:43] want this foundation.
Stephen Pell: [00:43:44] So, I mean, so they, they need someone to watch someone to, to have their back, right.
Someone to keep them financially organized. Yeah. Someone to make sure that, you know, all the, you know, that they're collecting all the money that they're owed. Yeah. That they're, that they're, that they're paying their suppliers that they're not getting, you know, the, all of their contracts and deals, you know, they've got a numbers person looking, looking over them.
Yeah. And that they feel secure. I don't think you can be creative without that security. And I think that's, that's what they want when they come to us. You know, they want to not have to think about it. Yeah. And whatever is happening in the world that I think that, I mean, that's probably part of, you know, what of Maslow's hierarchy of human needs is that you, you need to have that in able to build, you know, the rest of your, your career.
So I think, you know, that for us would have to be. Foundational in what we
Paul Shrimpling: [00:44:35] offer. So, and interesting that you point to that emotional payoff. And I think that's Jeff Bezos, doesn't talk about it in the interview, but actually is pointing to an emotional payoff, not just a tangible, functional financial payoff.
You know, I go to Amazon because I just know it'll be the right price it'll get delivered and it will be chances out being stuck. Very good. Emily, what are you thinking? Your three things stable in time would be for your specific niche.
Emily Inman: [00:45:03] So it was very similar to Stephen actually had actually asked children, solid financial foundations for construction businesses.
And that's how that is our strap line. But I think one of the, that is the beauty of niche in a way, is the stability. Cause then the niche you've made a commitment to your industry. So they're, they're getting the kind of specialty from knowing that you're committed to the industry and they, they know you know, as soon as they, before they talk to you that you're going to understand.
Their issues and what they're facing and, and the industry. So that's, yeah, kind of gives that kind of security, I think as well, in particularly as construction, businesses start to grow, they get to a point where they're starting to feel like they're losing control of some of the financials, especially when they get to the point of yeah.
Creating a full-time bookkeeper, a couple of people to do that kind of thing. Then they kind of can feel that they're losing. And control over the situation. And I, I, my Nisha, that kind of type of people that like to have that control and also they have to, because as I said before, the projects are very complex and full of different elements.
Yeah. So as they grow, as they grow, they can start to feel that they're losing that control. If they've got one person who sat there kind of holding all the financials, and they've got to ask for this report and ask for that report and yeah. And then that person's busy and that kind of thing. So.
I guess that's what we help them to do is to open that up. So moving it to more so that it's, the information is, is available and they're not relying on that kind of one person who's hosing. It becomes a bit more transparent. And, and the third one is transparency. The directors, they want to, you know, they're always going to need to know what's going on with their financials and have a need good insights there.
They, I think those things are never going to
Paul Shrimpling: [00:46:49] change. So I've got that sense of control of which availability is, is a part of that. You know, understanding and knowledge, you understand them cause you committed to them and, and, and, and the knowledge is there at their disposal whenever they want it.
And then that sense of security, certainty, stability. Which sounded like three, you know, ACEs in the pack. Don't you think in terms of, and it's, you're not, if you making the most of those messages around those three things statement attempt like Amazon does maybe you'll experience the sort of growth that they've experienced, who knows.
And Steven it's that? I find it fascinating that we, you know, your sector really well. So you talk in solid foundation and I go, what does that mean? And so it's actually work on getting the way you communicate the three things stable in time. Right. You know, that takes some not, you sorta know what it is.
But it's are you communicating it in the right way, using the right words in the right order to actually make sure you get to your cause your clients, Steven, or a particular personality with that creative bent and so on. It's are we using accountancy language to talk to them while we're using creative
Stephen Pell: [00:48:00] language to talk to them?
We're absolutely not using accounting language to talk to them. Yeah. I think most of these conversations, you know, some of the most interesting ones I've had, I mean, unfortunate enough to sort of get invited, to go to shows and, and, you know, hang out backstage and we'll do all the cool stuff that you would expect, you know, otherwise
But some of the, some of the interesting conversations happen then yes. And, and the sort of, some of the anxieties. Do come out. And I think that's the point where you nurture what you say, or you tailor what you say, depending on, you know, what w w what it is, but it's all of those things. Those foundations are, seem to be inherent in pretty much every single conversation.
Yeah. But you have to reword them slightly differently, depending on who you're talking to and the scenario and the situation, which is, and, and you, right. There's something. Can be done with the marketing message and that is the key to this. But the way that I found it and the success I've had is in those conversations and wrapping them around the conversation and actually connecting.
Yes. But you know, that's not to say that there's a strategy to be had with sort of getting a, sort of a more broader message out there to, you know, to scale something up. But I found the best access
Paul Shrimpling: [00:49:10] connecting. I'm guessing a lot of your new work comes through referrals and recommendations as opposed to any other form of model, really, because of the nature of the beast.
And I'm certain that will play a role in your business as well. Emily, but it's what I find fascinating is you just finished with that. You know, it, it's about us connecting with our customers in the right way, which was very much, you know, Emily's point earlier about Nat. Now everyone uses zoom.
We can connect, we can get closer, easier, faster, and more often. And it's that. The client understand knows. We understand, we appreciate the, the, the, the, the, I put this without swearing, the stuff they have to shovel on a daily or weekly or monthly basis, you know, whether it be the, the cash pieces in your, your sector, Emily and the uncertainty, and that desire for a sense of security.
But actually what's interesting here is. Emily, you use the word security and stability and certainty just as Stephen did. And I've been arguing for 18 years that, you know, one of the fundamental payoffs of working with a good accountancy firm is that I, as a business owner, feel that sense of certainty and confidence in the future of me and my business.
And I think that is a cornerstone for. Potentially every accountancy from irrelevant and irrespective of niche, or if they're a broad, you know, multi-sector a general practice. Well I've thoroughly enjoyed this conversation. I've got one last question for both of you, of everything we've covered and you've listened to each other.
If there was one thing that stands out of value for you and your firm, based on what we've covered off on this call today, what would it be? What's what stood out that you think could, should be doing a little bit more with that? What's been of most value, Steven.
Stephen Pell: [00:50:49] I would say this a foundational strategic principle that, you know, something that doesn't shift.
Right. It's something that, that, you know, that, that is solid no matter what happens right. In, in, in the industry or what happens in you know, the accounting industry and sort of the niche that you're operating in and, and having something, you know, like having three pillars that are four pillars that hold up what you're doing.
Brilliant. I think that's a, that's an outstanding way to sort of think about it. And I think that's quite, yeah.
Paul Shrimpling: [00:51:16] Okay, can you see how we might grow 1% improvements of your messaging around those three things stable in time? You know you know, just having to recheck in every quarter or off more often, if you want is a way of just, you know, layering and fine tuning that messaging and reasserting.
The fact that actually we have got the right three things stable in time. Cause who knows with what the way things change that, you know, a pandemic can shift them. Maybe Emily, what are your thoughts? What's sort of been of most value to you and your phone? From this conversation today. Yeah.
Emily Inman: [00:51:47] There's lots of things, but I think it's always I think we can get so busy and caught up in our own strategy and our client's strategy that we quite often, or I do anyway, forget to step back and look at the whole bigger strategy.
You know, of course we all have over the pandemic. Because, you know, it changed everything overnight, didn't it? His pants were getting changed and
Paul Shrimpling: [00:52:08] thrown out of the window.
Emily Inman: [00:52:10] Yeah, absolutely. And new ones coming through and things like that. But I think it's always good to, you know, remember to think of all those things and think in a broader term of what's can impact.
Cause you're right. There are you know, there's trends impacting our own industry, our client's industry and they will merge and combine and Produce something unique each time. So yes, it's good to reset and reflect on those things. I think.
Paul Shrimpling: [00:52:35] And that's the, that is the power of in one sense of strategy, is it, it is a reflection piece.
And. Well in a, in a, in a later one of these this series, we're going to talk very deliberately about how do you get to a place where you've worked out your strategy. You've got all the elements mapped out and then you go, right. But what do we do to turn that into something real for our firm and that's, and that'll be all right, what's our priority.
This quarter. And we'll, we'll, we'll do more work on that in a, in another session with another accountant till two. But folks really appreciate you taking time out and and sharing openly and candidly insights into your industry, sectors your firms and it's been really insightful. Thank you very, very much.
Thank you both.
You'll find more valuable discussions with the leaders of ambitious accounting firms at humanized, the numbers.online. Go to the show notes for this podcast and click the link to get access to the full series on strategy for accountants. You can also sign up to be notified each time a new podcast is made available. .
Key trends that impact the construction industry
Key trends facing the music industry
The value of eye to eye
Outputs vs services
3 things stable in time
Choosing how to communicate
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