Paul Shrimpling: 0:05

Welcome to the Humanise the Numbers podcast series Leaders, managers and owners of ambitious accounting firms sharing insights, successes and issues that will challenge you and connect you and your firm to the ways and means of transforming your firm's results.

Mark Allen: 0:22

They know their business and many entrepreneurs can read balance sheets better than many accountants. You know facts, so they need to sort of have your wisdom, your sort of knowledge and financial know-how. But then the understanding when you say, humanise the numbers and I touched on this right at the beginning of the podcast people need to know what they're looking at, don't they? And that's your job is to hold the client's hand and to be there for them.

Paul Shrimpling: 0:59

On this podcast. I had the great privilege of diving into a deep conversation with someone I've known for over two decades. Great privilege of diving into a deep conversation with someone I've known for over two decades, someone who's worked at board level in PLC, set his own firm up, sold his firm with three offices and moved on to the networks supporting the accountancy profession. In a way, mark Allen's one of my heroes because he struggled with a serious health issue and fought his way back into supporting the accountancy profession. He's that passionate about what you and your firm do. Let's dive into that podcast with Mark now.

Mark Allen: 1:32

Hi there, I'm Mark Allen. I qualified as a chartered management accountant back in the 1980s and worked for three listed businesses on FTSE stock exchange, went up to board level in my 20s and then threw it all in to go and work as an FD in some SME businesses. From there I built an accountancy practice and several other businesses which I sold along the way. The accountancy practice I owned for 23 years Built it from absolutely zero. In fact, I only had a pad and a pen in those days and I actually borrowed a computer for the first month before I bought a second-hand 286 machine. I then built that practice up from myself and my pen and pad to three officers one in Stratford-upon-Avon, where I'm sat now, one in Mayfair and one in stratford-upon-avon, where I'm sat now, one in mayfair and one in edinburgh so four partners. I sold to the three junior partners back in 2014.

Mark Allen: 2:54

Right, uh, I've ended various other things in uh accountancy networks after my finance director jobs, uh, and and get my practice role-doing, one of which I'd rather not talk about. Let's call it a values mismatch. But I moved on, took some time off for a couple of years to sit on my tractor on my farm where we've had horses, dogs, oh, and a couple of kids, and there's a wife in there somewhere as well. And then we I moved on from there and my business partner in a tax company that I ran that was pure tax advising primarily accountants but other professionals to start, uh, currently what I'm involved in as co-founder with David of the tag community Brilliant.

Paul Shrimpling: 3:50

And that's where we are Right and how many? I know you serve the accountants profession. How many accountants have you got in the tag community now, mark Just?

Mark Allen: 3:57

over 100. Right, okay, subscribing members.

Paul Shrimpling: 4:01

Right brilliant.

Mark Allen: 4:02

So we deliberately didn't want to just keep recruiting, recruiting, recruiting. I take between four and seven on in a month, but I don't choose to because we want to just deal with people that get value out of us and the right firms for us. Yeah, brilliant.

Paul Shrimpling: 4:21

So just so we get positioning on this, what's the largest and smallest firm within TAG?

Mark Allen: 4:28

12 million turnover. In fact, there's two of those Smallest firm, probably about 100,000 turnover.

Paul Shrimpling: 4:37

Oh really, oh right, so you're covering a broader picture. Brilliant, All right, and I know they can access all sorts of different services and we'll put a link to your email address in the show notes at the end. So qualified accountant career working with a list of companies into accountancy, then into networks, so a rather vast amount of experience with both accountants and businesses. So I'm wondering how would you answer the question what does humaniser numbers mean to you?

Mark Allen: 5:11

Well, I think one of the things I found out in PLC land, bearing in mind I was in my 20s and I advanced very quickly through the ranks was that at that age one can be a bit impetuous and a bit like a bully in a china shop. But I did find, to my great advantage, that the directors main board directors in particular liked me and I think when you're delivering numbers directors main board directors in particular liked me, and I think when you're delivering numbers it can be a bit flat, just as a page full of numbers. We didn't have fancy schmancy, graphs and diagrams and everything. It was just numbers with some commentary. So by being likeable, by delivering the numbers, when I reported to the various subsidiary boards and to the main board, I also introduced a lot of humour to it and that's what got me recognised.

Mark Allen: 6:26

And there used to be grown men going in to see the directors. It was a bit rough in those days. The one company I ended up with was a construction and engineering company it was the third largest in Europe at the time and there were grown men with children who were my age who used to shake when they're waiting outside the director's offices to go in. Yeah, and I just thought I can't be bothered with that. So I just, I just I was me and I thought, well, what's the worst? They don't hang you nowadays, do they.

Paul Shrimpling: 7:05

So you're suggesting that actually humour plus likeable plus numbers is a good cocktail. Shall I use that phrase?

Mark Allen: 7:17

Well, that's the way I did it. I mean obviously it can mean many things and we could hypothesise on that. But that's just my take on it. Yeah, obviously it can mean many things and we could hypothesize on that, but that's just my take on it.

Mark Allen: 7:26

Yeah, yeah yeah, and you and I know, paul and Douglas, you know when you meet people for the first time, we literally make millions of judgments in our laptop computer about that person. And you know, we know about the 30-second rule, that you make a lot of judgments in that first 30 seconds of meeting a person or in a meeting it's probably more like the four-second rule that you make your mind up very, very quickly about a person. So if you can break the ice when you're delivering numbers, I just feel, um, building rapport with the, the recipient of the information, the client, actually helps break that down. And yeah, we should spend more time trying trying to get people to like us and not less. You know, that's just my take on it.

Paul Shrimpling: 8:24

Yeah, yeah isn't there a um, a potential challenge in there in terms of let's work harder at people liking us could take us down a path of inauthenticity. You know, are you? You're not being who you are and ultimately, you know there's a there's, there's, the ladder isn't, there's no like and trust ladder. So you know, get to know someone, get to like them, and then you'll get to trust them. You've got to get over the like hurdle but they've got to like. Well, I'm posing this as a question Do you need to modify your behavior so that they like you, or do you just genuinely be who you are and just emphasize one or two elements of who you are and just emphasise one or two elements of who you are? What's your take on that?

Mark Allen: 9:08

No, I fully agree About the year. I'm guessing 2004,. I think it was. I think it might have been around then that you introduced me to the writings of Bob Cialdini, Right, or to give me his fuller title, Dr Robert Cialdini Right.

Paul Shrimpling: 9:26

Or to give me his fuller title, Dr Robert.

Mark Allen: 9:27

Cialdini, and one of the principles of people trusting you and saying yes to you is consistency, and therefore, if you're coming across as disingenuous, not being yourself, people spot it very, very quickly. Yeah, yeah.

Mark Allen: 9:52

In their subconscious and their gut, they will sense something. One of my sayings is it may not be nuts to go with your gut when you get that feeling, and certainly in my sort of questionable wisdom. The reason we don't go for huge amounts of accountants as well is we have an overarching principle. We're a very values orientated business, which is another key thing when you're doing numbers. It's a business of integrity, um, but above those value sets which we adhere to a hundred percent is an overarching principle called ddwt peter thompson shows up in the meeting already.

Paul Shrimpling: 10:42

You're right, okay, he does. Yeah, yeah, so absolutely.

Mark Allen: 10:45

You know it is is Peter's and we have adopted that principle, which is don't deal with tossers.

Paul Shrimpling: 10:53

Yeah, or any other tea that you want to add into the mix. Yeah, yeah.

Mark Allen: 10:56

So if you're taking on clients or you're thinking of taking a job, it's a two-way street, isn't it it? You need to be having the space to be yourself if you're going to work well with that particular client or that particular employer.

Paul Shrimpling: 11:13

Yeah, yeah, I just wonder, though, mark is you know there's I'm thinking more of the, the managers rather than the owners of accounting firms. They're going into a prospect meeting with a potential new client and know that they need to establish a level of trust, therefore know that they need to establish a level of liking and need to be themselves. There's an awful lot of things pressing in on a novice manager, say, going into that setting, and for them to make a decision about whether the person in front of them is, um, uh, someone that ticks the ddwt box or doesn't, is a is is a tough ask, isn't it? And I think you know absolutely lots of firms end up working with people that really they should, you know, and clients that they, when they think about it, really shouldn't I have an answer?

Mark Allen: 12:05

I have an answer to that. Right, and the way we used to train our client managers in my practice back in the day when I owned it, was we would educate them, particularly with new clients, to say look, if at any point you are failing to understand the information we are supplying you or the reason behind it, please feel free to ask and stop. Yeah, we won't make a judgment. There's no such thing as a stupid question. It's just yeah, talk, we talk in numbers. You know you might deal in something completely different depending what your business is yeah

Paul Shrimpling: 12:53

it's interesting. Already in this conversation, you've brought up this concept of space. It seems to me mark is, you know, creating space there for a client to step in and go hang on a second. I don't understand or create some space that you can work towards building in some humour or likeability, whilst staying authentic. And space seems to be a scarce resource in the life of the leaders and managers of accounting firms, because they're so busy being busy. What have you seen work across the hundreds of firms you've been exposed to? And what have you, the leaders and managers of accounting firms, because they're so busy being busy, um, what? What have you seen work across the hundreds of firms you've been exposed to? And what have you seen work in your own firms that's, uh, helped create some capacity, some space for thinking deeper, having better conversations? What, what strategies, what, um, what processes have you seen work for you?

Mark Allen: 13:47

well, firstly, a rapport, a rapport building um, whether it's a client or whether it's a manager, above you try and build rapport, take an interest in them. What are their hobbies? An interest in them, what are their hobbies, what are their families' names, have they got kids? Have they got grandkids? And once you've built that rapport, it is much easier to have one-to-one conversations, as though you're sat in your front room having a beer or a coffee together with the client, or a glass of wine, whatever it is.

Paul Shrimpling: 14:28

And and it relaxes the whole situation when the client becomes a friend and not just a client but if anything I just want to push, I agree with with you, by the way the effort and energy that goes into let's just be more human than accountant, particularly in the early stages of establishing know, like and trust. And I'm reflecting on we did a podcast and I'll put it in the show notes with a guy called Andrew Van Der Beek from Australia, and Andrew says when you're an accountant and you're doing accountancy work, you're working on the numbers, you need to be 80% accountant, 20% human. And when you're in a meeting with a client or you're in a discussion with a client, you need to be 80% human and 20% accountant. And so the pressures of being an accountant is just get it out of the way when you're in that human interaction space and I think sometimes that gets missed, don't you think?

Paul Shrimpling: 15:25

Absolutely, yeah, um, so we, we, we got our managers, leaders, dropping into prospect meetings, dropping into team meetings. They know they should establish rapport, but they haven't got time. And what I'm trying to push for is your insights, mark on what is it you do in your firms to create the space and time to have an opportunity to build rapport, have an opportunity to maybe introduce a bit of humour, have an opportunity to work better at understanding what's going on in that client's life and their business. Because I think that space is a scarce commodity, I'm wondering essentially what have you seen work that helps managers, leaders of accounting firms, build in space?

Mark Allen: 16:10

I get rid of rigidity In 1991, timesheets after a month don't need to do those. Even when I got team members, we'll do job tracking. Minimize the stuff that distracts them from the important stuff need to do those. Even when I got team members will do job tracking. Minimize the stuff that distracts them from the important stuff, that frontline time with clients, quality of time, and I also later on, when we got a number of team members I think we've got about half a dozen when we implemented this we started to set targets for billing. But we didn't just give them bonuses based on the amount of billing they did, it was partly based on the whole team billing for the quarter and in addition we had a subjective matter or element called team player and team player allowed for the person who fixed the photocopier when it went wrong, and that wasn't me, or fixed the server when it went wrong, and that wasn't me, or went and bought the loo rolls or coffee or whatever it was back in the day it wasn't me. So I recognized that element of work People who were working, say, as school governors, working on boards of charity, all the rest of it that's valuable to the brand and again shows the humanity and everything now is pushing ESG, which is right. So again, we've got to demonstrate what our beliefs are, and that is again why it's so important to get those clients that you can relate to and they can relate to you.

Mark Allen: 18:19

In terms of humanizing the numbers, you also have to recognize how a certain client behaves, thinks and takes information into their limbic system, in their brain, and it may be some people are very number literate. You know you may deal with clients who've got dyscalculia, for instance. So, particularly with AI, now's really really simple. We've got some amazing stuff we've developed internally and we're still working on fine-tuning it where, within seconds, we can take a zero or quickbooks or sage file and turn it into a presentation with a video, you know, all delivered by an AI robot but with lovely images in the background, talking them through what has happened in their accounts for the last month, right, literally seconds, and so that technology gives us the ability to say to the client what is your chosen style of having information delivered to you.

Mark Allen: 19:44

So if they feel better with you sort of sending through a PowerPoint with some images on, why not? Can you do it over Zoom? So you may sort of think about a multi-format If you're humanising it. There is no homogeneous method that's going to do that is there. You've got to be adaptable to some degree, and I know you know all this wacky stuff as well, paul excuse me, it's it's um.

Paul Shrimpling: 20:20

Go on and love it as I do.

Mark Allen: 20:22

Yeah, well, it's, it's um business is about psychology as much as anything well, I think I agree.

Paul Shrimpling: 20:32

Yeah, psychology and emotion, you know there's that. There's the way the brain works and the way the emotions respond to whatever's going on in a meeting or how they respond and yet we understand how the brain works, we have very little understanding of how the mind works.

Mark Allen: 20:50

That's why people change from day to day. Yeah, yeah, it's yeah. So we have to be mindful of their preferred learning styles yeah, and I think communication styles I think that's powerful and and you know that that's, that's how we need to sort of set our store. That I believe. Yeah, may some may disagree with me. I haven't got all the answers.

Paul Shrimpling: 21:12

No well, none of us have got all the answers, but I've written the words segment size one down. So you know, for every team member, segment size one. For every client, segment size one. There's nuances that they're I don't like the phrase hardwired, but they've got preferences in the way they work and how they want to receive information, how they want to learn.

Mark Allen: 21:34

Because it suits you. Here's an idea. Yeah, here's an idea. For no cost, put your wallet away, lads. Um, what about if you've got a reasonably sizable practice? What about matching the client's style to your client manager's style? Yeah, that might be an idea, mightn't it? Have you seen that work, matt? I haven't, because I've only just thought of it.

Paul Shrimpling: 22:06

But it does. It fits with one of Douglas's key points in the work that we do with firms around. You know, right person right seat yeah nice?

Paul Shrimpling: 22:15

Yeah, because there is. Those preferences aren't hardwired, but they are still preferences and there's, you know, you tap into the way they are, meet them where they are and all of a sudden, maybe, just maybe, that creates some space, which then creates an opportunity and time out to have those more human conversations, which builds liking, builds trust, whether you're naturally funny or not, and your bad jokes are legendary mark, so I'm not going to go too deep into that human piece um, um doug, I'm guessing you're itching to quiz Mark in that value space that he flagged up earlier.

Paul Shrimpling: 22:57

Where do you want to take us next?

Doug Aitken: 23:00

Well, it was actually somewhere else I wanted to go initially, when you were talking about your client managers, mark. I loved the encouragement to let them loosen clients and build rapport themselves and whatnot. I'm just wondering how that impacted your recruitment. You know what did you look for in a client manager? Because the profession is notorious for looking for technical as opposed to social skills.

Mark Allen: 23:29

The reason I chose David when we set up a very traditional tax firm. So absolutely nothing aggressive, it was just plain vanilla, clever stuff, utilizing the legislation within safety margins and not overstepping it into avoidance areas or whatever. But the reason I chose David? He'd worked for two of the big four and then he was relocating to the Midlands and I asked him to come and join me in this firm, partially because of his what I call his bedside manner, as you would have, of a doctor, not literally with a client, but I call it bedside manner, although he was a great technical tax guy as well. He's a tax advisor with a fantastic CV. He was running a large international technical tax team at bdo before he came to work for me. Who, mr dyslexic, who was originally born in a third world country a few setbacks there. I've never told you that, paul world country.

Mark Allen: 24:49

That's where I was born and educated Scotland, wolverhampton.

Paul Shrimpling: 25:05

I told you those jokes are so bad, sorry, folks, if you're from Wolverhampton, it's a marvellous place at the time of recording, they'd just beaten man United, which isn't a particularly great thing to cheer about this season. So, in answer to Doug's question, you made a key hire because of using your phrase bedside manner rather than technical capabilities, albeit technical capabilities are part of the mix.

Mark Allen: 25:37

I stepped away from recruitment many, many years ago when I realised I was absolutely awful at it. What was happening was I was so enthusiastic about the firm I ran. I'm talking about the accounting firm, not the IT business and the property business and all that stuff and the office service business. In the accounting business I was recruiting lots of people very, very quickly and we ended up having to sack four people in two years. Somehow we remained friends with them, very good friends with them. I looked in the mirror and said that ain't their fault, that's your fault, mark. What was happening? They were mirroring my words and I also convinced myself. My ego took over at that point in my life. I convinced myself I could make a great accountant out of anybody. So I stepped back and I said look, I'll be in the interviews, or certainly the first interview, but there must also be one of my fellow partners junior partners in the interview with me and they would conduct the second interview.

Mark Allen: 27:01

And we did a couple of very different things. Number one we introduced two levels of tests, depending on what level they were coming into the business at A basic test and a more advanced one that got literacy and numeracy and general knowledge in. To cut short what was behind it and what was amazing. We would find people who were coming from existing accounting jobs who couldn't add three numbers together. Maybe it was the pressure of we didn't used to warn them it was happening, or maybe it highlighted a problem.

Mark Allen: 27:44

But simple percentages as well. What is X expressed as a percentage of Y? And I won't go into the anagrams, but some of the answers we got off that, oh no, if I may sidetrack, my favorite was one of our clients who is a builder and perhaps not the sharpest tool in the toolkit as it was. He came in one day. He said what's this test you had to do to one of my chartered accountants who joined me as a team member, and she started giving a few examples and she said one of the questions was can you write down three Shakespeare plays? To which the builder client said hmm, he said I kind of know Romeo and Juliet, but I couldn't write the whole thing down.

Paul Shrimpling: 28:45

Got to get the wording right. Got to get the wording right.

Mark Allen: 28:47

But I think it's. I mean, bless him, he was a lovely lad, but anyway. The second item we did was I said, look, I mean bless him, he was a lovely lad, but anyway. The second item we did was I said look. I said I detest having to tell people it hasn't worked out, you know, it's just not a nice place to be and that's down to me because I took the wrong people on for the roles and let my ego run ahead with me.

Mark Allen: 29:11

So the second thing we did, we said if there is any slight negativity in what they say like oh, it's a bit far to travel or, oh, I'm not quite sure about this, not quite sure about that any negativity at all, we would say no. Even if we were suffering for capacity, we'd say they're not right, move on. Yeah, and that's how we qualified it. Because it's a two-way street. Isn't it giving somebody a job when they're not right to fit in one of the seats on the bus, as Jim Used to talk about? Yeah, then you do them a disservice by taking them into the business.

Mark Allen: 29:57

Now obviously this is very difficult with skill shortages. At the moment We've got members who are arranging visas and bringing people chartered accountants in from India and other jurisdictions you know, sri Lanka, philippines to actually physically work in the UK rather than offshoring, and that's working very well for them, but obviously not everybody has the confidence or the knowledge or the people to do all the work to make that happen. Yeah, yeah, and so that was it really. We did the tests and we looked at was there any negatives? When they gave the feedback and at least two of the partners and that didn't necessarily have to include me would have to say yes, they're right, they're a right fit. Yeah, yeah yeah.

Paul Shrimpling: 30:52

So the robustness that you've built into that recruitment program you know two different levels of test avoiding confirmation bias, because you've got more than one partner involved in the decision-making process. And also that red flag, if you will, is if they're half-hearted or negative in any sort of way about the nature of the business, the work that they're about to start doing, and so on. Essentially, that would just undermark that they weren't a good fit for the firm Shows that there's a level, there's a standard mark, that you're looking to build a robust process to ensure that every hire hits a baseline standard. Now, did that advance the success of your recruitment process? Ie. Did you have to stop?

Mark Allen: 31:37

firing people yeah, we, we never fired one after that it was revolutionary yeah brilliant, uh, interesting though.

Mark Allen: 31:45

I'll just tell you about the test, if I may. Little Marky Sidetrack is one of my junior partners at the time, now the managing partner of my old practice. His father sadly passed away a few years ago, but his father used to be an egg farmer. He got huge amounts of chickens. He took the advanced test and he got a higher score than any of the qualified accountants who came for jobs with us. Wow, what did you put that down to? Interesting, isn't?

Paul Shrimpling: 32:23

it. Yeah, what did you put that down?

Mark Allen: 32:25

to. I think some people are just great at quizzing and their brain just works that way, doesn't it? And they think quickly and of course, he wasn't under pressure. Yeah, um, and this was, this was pre-google, yeah, where everybody would link to google or ai to get the answer so cool, so he just went through it.

Paul Shrimpling: 32:47

Genuinely, yeah, can take us down a slightly different line, but what are your thoughts? So you've been in the profession a good while run your own firm, worked in other firms, built other businesses. What, what, what do you think the meaning behind being a great accountant is what? What's fundamentally at play for the profession? That, um, if you will, what's the core purpose of the profession?

Mark Allen: 33:17

uh, I think, integrity. You trust your doctor, you know if you've got a um you know a consultant for mental illness, you would have to trust them absolutely and you have to trust your accountant, and I think integrity is everything. Now, to some degree, you have to learn a little bit of that, but it is so, so important in the mix.

Mark Allen: 33:51

It is so so important in the mix Technical skills. Obviously, by nature it is a technical profession. It is a bit of a worry in some ways that if you're not careful, people come into the profession and rely on the software. And I remember doing my exams where we used a calculator and even days where we weren't allowed a calculator in the early exams and once we switched to being able to use calculators, of course the tendency then was for people to plug in a sum and write down the answer and stop thinking well, have I put the sum in right? Is the equation I've typed into the calculator correct? Um, and that's. That's kind of got magnified with technology as it's grown. So I think you know we we always need to go back to basics, to an element and probably test ourselves and say do we really understand the core principles of how that software works? What sense checks can? We put in it.

Paul Shrimpling: 35:14

So if a component of the core purpose of the profession is integrity, in what ways does that deliver meaning and value to our team and to our clients? Do you think?

Mark Allen: 35:30

I think that the word integrity and you take it as broadly as you wish here, but I think that the clients understand there is a sense of loyalty, a sense of common purpose, a sense of values within the organization they're dealing with and that increases that trust element to which I referred. The client must have absolute trust in you, as they would with their lawyer, their doctor or other professionals yeah it's it.

Paul Shrimpling: 36:05

I think that's quite powerful, isn't it? Because whether it's a doctor, lawyer, surgeon, accountant, all those professionals, uh, you ain't, you're not going to take a, you're not going to make a decision based on their diagnosis, their insight into your world, unless you've got that level of trust in their integrity. So I see that it's an absolute cornerstone, isn't it, of the relationship and therefore we're almost getting back into it's how you manage every conversation with every client determines whether they see that you're someone with integrity or not. And I can see how that connects with your point earlier. Mark around uh, if you don't know the answer, create some space and you know. Uh, if you will fess up to the fact you don't know the answer yeah, we've got to be thorough with the, with the detail, you know it's.

Mark Allen: 36:57

It's no good thinking, oh, that control accounts only a penny? Uh, only a penny out, it doesn't matter. You know things have to balance to the penny. I mean, douglas, your background, you know, in the days of rbs, as I recall douglas aiken, bank manager of the year rbs. Um Douglas Aitken, bank Manager of the Year RBS. Look, you know you couldn't leave the bank until everything was balanced, could you?

Speaker 5: 37:31

Yeah, that's right.

Mark Allen: 37:34

And you know if you're 50p out one way. You know there could be a million and 50p error in another place.

Speaker 5: 37:42

You know who knows.

Mark Allen: 37:45

So I think that sort of level internally is important and people need to feel comfortable that you've taken those checks. And I'll tell you what I think is a funny story. I was at a board meeting in PLC land and the chairman of the listed company, len, who was a personal friend of Dennis Thatcher Some funny stories there, but I won't tell you those today and it was the property meeting. So we used to do big developments like supermarkets and retail parks, huge office blocks for local authorities, all sorts, and we'd have any number of developments going.

Mark Allen: 38:36

I used to have to do the development appraisals for the board meeting and do all the commentary on the numbers and the overheads and all the forecasts and it was a real pressure job to get everything ready to take into the board meeting. So I'd done these appraisals and in the forecast column, which was actually down the left hand side in the appraisal, and we used to do it all in excel in those days, um, we had to settle on a property with the next door neighbor, um, for rights of light, and the negotiated figure was 100 000 pounds, massive sum of money back then you can get the scale of the development size. I thought, oh, I need a space to stick that £100,000 in, because it was quite unusual in a development. And I'm at the board meeting and the chairman goes what's this? Sundries, £100,000, sundries, £100,000 sundries, yeah, interesting choice and.

Mark Allen: 39:47

I just forgot to edit that word sundries and change it.

Paul Shrimpling: 39:51

Yeah, fantastic. So we're trying to steer this. The conversation is is about what? What difference? Yes, we've got an accountant. They're. They're living a life of integrity, as they should. They must, given the nature of their work and role as a professional, trusted advisor. What do you think is the difference that the accounting profession could, should be making on a meeting-by-meeting basis, client-by-client, interaction-by-interaction mark? What's the difference that we're here or you, as a profession, are here to deliver on?

Mark Allen: 40:27

Yeah, well, I believe behind every great entrepreneur there's a great accountant by their side. And at whatever level you are in your profession, your training that for me, is your goal. You sit by the client and you're their confidant. You have to be there where they start to refer to you and say what do you think? They know their business and many entrepreneurs can read balance sheets better than many accountants. You know fat Because they visualize what the numbers mean. Oh, those fixed assets, yeah, they're all the cars, all the stuff in the factory, factory building or office or whatever, or office or whatever. So they need to sort of have your wisdom, your sort of knowledge and financial know-how.

Mark Allen: 41:32

Because I remember arguing even with the finance director of a huge group, a listed group, about the way to measure which property developments, again, we should go into, and it took quite a while to convince him to go with the IRR, internal rate of return. So I built a whole model of that in Excel how to calculate an IRR based on the sort of cash flow projections of it all. And you know he then said oh, I see you're talking about the time value of the money. I said, absolutely. I said, when you've got millions of pounds invested in something. You've got to look at how long that development takes, not just the profit figure that comes out of this in relation to the, the size of the development, and that became the standard across the group.

Mark Allen: 42:33

Uh, and that's the sort of uh things I tried to do was bring yeah bring applied wisdom and put it in, and that, in that case, that was an example of financial management. Yeah, yeah. But then the understanding when you say humanize the numbers and I touched on this right at the beginning of of the podcast you know people need to know what they're looking at, don't they? And that's your job to not just stop them getting penalties and interest charges off HMRC or other governmental organisations like Companies House. I believe your job is to hold the client's hand and to be there for them. To hold the client's hand and to be there for them In every film and this comes from a book by Donald Miller Storytelling client.

Paul Shrimpling: 43:33

I think it's called Story Brand. Yeah, story Brand, it's a brilliant book. It is, it's a brilliant book.

Mark Allen: 43:37

Yeah, yeah. In every film you have a hero or heroine and you have a guide, and whether that be Professor Emmett Brown in Back to the Future, obi-wan Kenobi in Star Wars or whoever, Frodo in Lord of the Rings.

Paul Shrimpling: 43:55

Yeah.

Mark Allen: 43:57

You are the guide.

Speaker 3: 43:58

You're not the hero in the story, the client, is the hero, aren't they?

Mark Allen: 44:03

Yeah, brilliant and again, that human element of recognising that, I think, hits the nail on the head a wee bit, doesn't it? Of?

Paul Shrimpling: 44:11

recognising the numbers? Yeah, for sure, because every story is a human story, however you look at it. Whatever book you read, whatever film you watch, there's the unfolding of the human story. And I find it fascinating and I think again, I know, when we use the word on this, powerful that you say behind every business leader there's a great accountant, behind every great business leader, there's a great accountant that's applying wisdom, that interprets. My understanding is what you're saying is interpreting the numbers in such a way that it makes sense to them and enables them to make really good decisions. And I think sometimes, mark what gets lost in the busyness of doing accounts work, doing payroll work, doing bookkeeping work, doing audit work, doing all the work, is that the accountancy profession, every individual accountant, is there to help the business owners run a better business at the end of the day.

Mark Allen: 45:08

And I think your perspective, with the plc's and the smaller businesses, as well as accountants, have shown. One final factor I would add, that would be um compassion. I believe that in our profession, people do look to us for an element of compassion. So one of my other quotes is and I can't remember the date I wrote this one, it was a few years back. But we need to make compassion a fashion, being a friend, a trend and something else. I can't remember what else I put in it off the top of my head, but it it really is about that. Where again, holding the hand, being compassionate. You know, we've all seen clients going through divorces. We've seen clients go through losses of parents, grandparents, sadly even children at times losing their pets businesses getting into difficulty and struggling.

Mark Allen: 46:14

We're not there as a judge. We're there to say we can help. We've got an answer for that, we can help. We've got an answer for that, and that is part of the role. And that is absolutely one million percent about humanising the numbers.

Paul Shrimpling: 46:32

Yeah, Please forgive this brief interruption. You've just heard Mark talk about the Story brand by Donald Miller. There's a business breakthrough report that you can read in the time it takes to drink a cup of tea or coffee and you'll find a link to Marketing for Accountancy Firms the business breakthrough report in the show notes. Let's get back to that discussion with Mark now. Yeah, it's an underused word.

Speaker 5: 46:54

Doug and I often talk about.

Paul Shrimpling: 46:57

You know in every conversation do what you can to demonstrate that you care enough, which is another way of saying do things to show that you you, you you are being genuinely compassionate yeah, I've got a mantra which I use regularly, which is treat everybody like they're somebody treat everybody you know I?

Mark Allen: 47:20

I stop in the the street and have conversations with homeless people when everybody else is pretending they haven't noticed them. Yeah, and they'll often say you're the first person who's looked at me. Before I've said can I buy you a sandwich or a cup of coffee, any of that stuff? You're the first person that's looked at me and there, but for the grace of God, go many of us, and we don't realise how rapidly that can happen. Yeah.

Mark Allen: 47:57

People can end up in prison with one driving offence you know and change their life overnight. Yeah, indeed, you do not judge people because at the end of the day, it is my personal belief and I know it's not everybody's cup of tea, but I think there's a much bigger judge sits above me. Yeah, yeah.

Paul Shrimpling: 48:19

And I live my life by that standard well, mark, one of the reasons I want to invite you on the podcast is you've had an extensive career and you've had some of those hanging by a thread issues thrown in your camp from a health perspective and come out the other side, which has got to influence your views on the difficulties and challenges that the profession are facing going forward. So, every individual manager, every individual leaders, you know this, you know the the advance of technology, the cultural shifts, the trends that, um, you know, the gen zeds, are making us look at business in a completely different way than we've ever looked at it before. There's lots of challenges out there. I've had serious health issues and come out the other side, I know you have.

Paul Shrimpling: 49:14

And that might be the framing for this next question, which is look accountants. Behind every great just just using your word behind every great business leader, business owner, business manager, there's a great accountant. Uh, let's build in, uh, compassion, let's build in the fact that we're a guide, not the hero of the story, um, but within those stories, there are key challenges. Well, I'm just wondering what you think are the, um, the, the, the one or two key challenges that everyone listening to this pod as a professional accountant, manager, leader of the firm are going to be facing, and and how best do we um take them on?

Mark Allen: 49:57

well, I suppose nowadays, uh, the first. The first is uh, ironically, this is a bit of a oxymoron a skill shortage, at a time when some very large entrepreneurs in terms of wealth are saying 60 percent of the population is going to be put out of work by robots. I even hear accountants telling me that accountants are going to be out of work in the next few years, and so forth. So technology is a challenge, staying ahead, and of course, what accountants have done over the years is pivot. Staying ahead, and of course, what accountants have done over the years is pivot. In the late 80s, when I started my sorry early 80s, when I started my accountancy training in fact it was the late 70s I remember a financial accounting lecturer saying why are you lot training for accountancy? Don't you think that computers will take all your jobs? Roll on to 96, 97, self-assessment started. Hmrc immediately thought self-assessment meant accountants will be out of work. No, we just got busier again, as we did with computers.

Mark Allen: 51:26

The accountancy profession has led the way more than any other sector in every technological leap forward historically, and that is what is happening with AI at the moment. It is more adopted by accountants than any other sector apart from actually the manufacturers and creators of AI. We hugely get behind it. And blockchain is the other area which absolutely fascinates me, because that is blockchain, smart contracts, nfts, crypto. We may not think it, but they will impact on our lives in every business more quickly than we realize. So I think we have a duty as accountants to stay educated on AI, blockchain and any other technology maybe robotics to some degree as well, because we need to know that stuff and that may be our future.

Mark Allen: 52:37

I was saying, you know, being a humble chartered management accountant when I became the, I still hold the record for being the youngest ever chair of the SEMA Members in Practice Committee chair of the SEMA Members in Practice Committee, a committee I sat on for 20 years. I was vice chair for six as well, and I remember going around the country, all over the UK, and doing presentations to members who were thinking of going into practice, to members who were thinking of going into practice, and I was saying back what? 30 years ago? I was saying accountants are moving into more management accounting, more business advisory.

Mark Allen: 53:37

That is going to be the requirement of the client of the future, not the client of now, to use paul dunn's words, and therefore you know right now, as things get faster, I think I don't know if you're both familiar with morris law. Yes, yeah, from the guy at Intel.

Paul Shrimpling: 53:50

He was the designer at Intel, wasn't he?

Mark Allen: 53:52

Yeah, the speed of microprocessors, microprocessors, and it's just gone almost into a straight line upwards. You know the speed doubling every year and people have been saying for years that won't continue. And technology finds a way, doesn't it? Yeah.

Mark Allen: 54:14

I think what you're saying that we, we, we have to keep up with it to survive to some degree, and we may not feel comfortable with being a leader and jumping in and being the early adopter on everything, but keep an eye on it, listen out for it, watch what the industry leaders are going to be. I mean talking about a spreadsheet earlier, excel. I mean I started off with something called VisiCalc, which nobody will know what the hell that was. I then moved on to Lotus 1, 2, 3, and then Excel became the standard and that's what people use as a spreadsheet.

Paul Shrimpling: 54:53

They use the word simultaneously, don't, yeah, yeah yeah, I think, uh, what I'm hearing there mark is, as per moore's law. You know, the speed of microprocessor doubled every year since it was invented, uh, and seems to be, uh, continuing to do so and, like you say, it's now in the next. What's been exponential since it started? Just almost vertical now, uh, what you're also saying is the accounting profession has been at the forefront of the adoption and adaption of technology. From you know, for time and time and time and time again. Is there any reason why it would be any different now? So there's room for optimism that we're well placed, or you guys are well placed. All accountants are well placed as a profession to be, um, making as big a difference, bringing that applied wisdom to not just, maybe, the numbers, but also the use of the tech, maybe yeah, but that is the tech humanizing the numbers.

Mark Allen: 55:46

sir patrick winston, who was head of MIT AI Development and Education. So Massachusetts Institute of Technology, mit, yeah. So Patrick said to a group of students there's a video you can Google Sir Patrick Winston. He said this and I'll try and get the quote exactly right, but it went along the lines of your success in life will largely depend upon three things your ability to speak, your ability to write and your ability to come up with good ideas, in that order.

Mark Allen: 56:46

So, machines can throw out as much information as you like. That human element is, and I penned something in 2020 called the Digital Myth. I did actually write to Michael Gerber, who I've worked with twice in the UK, and sort of say did he mind? I never got an answer so I assumed it was, but I called it the D-Myth, the Digital Myth that people are saying, oh yeah, computers are going to do this. I always gonna do that and I was going rubbish. You will always need a human behind it. Yeah, you will need great people as well as great technical, because we are so far off AI really understanding the human mind and the emotions, ergo that go with it that he's not going to be able to deliver adequately true advisory, because so much of that is looking somebody in the eye, the smell of them, the body language is looking somebody in the eye. Yeah, the smell of them, the body language, the hand actions, whatever you know. I mean you can tell whether a person feels comfortable or not.

Mark Allen: 58:06

Yeah right, whether they're anxious, whether they're fearful, yeah, and that cannot be run by AI. Anyway, I've rattled on.

Paul Shrimpling: 58:16

No, no, I'm taking this towards wrapping this fascinating discussion up. But you know great people, great technology. Both are required, yeah, and if you know Sir Patrick Winston, mit AI wizards, talking about human skills speaking, writing and coming up with ideas the source of all future success as a human being, you can bolt technology into all of those, but you still need to write, speak and generate new ideas. I've referenced a Peter Thiel book today Zero to One. You know there's the creation of new stuff, new processes. New technology is what humans are brilliant at. The AI is not so good at that. You know, it's a derivative product. It's going, it's trawling the internet to work out what to suggest, rather than coming up with something intuitively new, which is that good idea piece I'm going to share first.

Paul Shrimpling: 59:18

But my last question too. I'm going to then come to Douglas to give you time to think, mark, of everything we've covered off today. What stood out for you and for me? I've got four words actually Applied wisdom, translator and compassion, and it's trying to fold that into every conversation with every client. Fold those three things into every conversation with every team. Member, leader, manager Sets you up for being a profoundly human and successful accountant. In my view, those four words for me stand out, douglas. What showed up for you? That's really triggered you and is your biggest takeaway from this discussion.

Doug Aitken: 1:00:00

I loved the compassion part too. I think that's definitely in the human space and I loved your example actually of matching the client's style preference to your team member's style.

Doug Aitken: 1:00:15

It's so simple and yet so difficult to achieve in a way, but when done, it's so powerful as well. You put yourself in the client's shoes. How will the client feel about it? And I've loved. I was actually dying to ask you, Mark, about. We're all gentlemen of a certain age now, so I can ask this, but I'm intrigued about what have you learned on the journey. I picked up a few things as you've been going through and it feels like you've been good with your team. You've got out their way. You've recognised your limitations and You've got out their way. You've recognised your limitations and recognised what they're great at, and you also relinquished control. As you grew your firm and your business, you had to relinquish control. So I'm just wondering, in your words, what have you learned? What have been your life lessons, would you say?

Mark Allen: 1:01:14

Well, I think firstly and we touched on this be genuine. Be yourself. There is only one of you, just one of you, and don't let people change you. You're a marvellous, marvellous miracle and, as our great friend I mean thompson, who, uh, you referred to earlier, uh, I've known peter for over 30 years and we we regularly go out for lunch together and bounce high ideas around he probably come up, came up with one of the best ever phrases that I've heard, which is you can't consistently be who you aren't. How wonderful is that? You can't consistently be who you aren't. So just be yourself. Yeah, just be yourself. There will be lots of people who like you. One thing's for sure if you try to emanate other people and act like them in every way, it won't work. Yes, follow the principles of people who have been successful, but with your own slant on it.

Paul Shrimpling: 1:02:30

Yeah, that's a great place to finish. Be genuine. Be uniquely you and learn to be genuine. Be uniquely you and be comfortable. You know, learn to be comfortable with who you are. Uniquely you, um, absolutely. And if you're consistent, you'll live in that place of integrity that you made such a big play of earlier in the conversation. Mark, it's been a great privilege to chew the fat with you on the humanizer numbers pod today. I really appreciate you taking time out of your day to work with us.

Paul Shrimpling: 1:02:53

Thank you very much, really appreciate it my pleasure.

Paul Shrimpling: 1:02:57

Thank you, doug, thank you paul if there were three key messages for me in that discussion with mark, it's around compassion, around applied wisdom and about you, as a an accountancy professional, being a guide to successful businesses. Like Mark said, behind every great business leader there's a great accountant, and that's why we set up the Accountants Growth Academy. So if you want to find out more about working with like-minded accountants like-minded ambitious accountants go to the link for the Accountants Growth Academy in the show notes. You'll find more valuable discussions with the leaders of ambitious accounting firms. At humanize the numbersonline, you can also sign up to be notified each time a new podcast is made available. You're about to hear a short excerpt from a podcast discussion with Jelon Victor, chief Growth Officer at GoCardless. If you like what you hear, please go to iTunes podcasts, spotify or go to humanizethenumbersonline.

Speaker 5: 1:04:08

I worked with a mental health professional and so this is related to my time at Headspace.

Speaker 5: 1:04:13

But he quizzed us and he said what is the opposite of stress? And you know we were all saying like calm, peace, all of these things, and it really actually is trust. Trust is the opposite of stress, because that's where all of your anxiety and worry is, and it could be lack of trust in a person, and worry is, and it could be lack of trust in a person, lack of trust in a system and a product, and so, for me, direct debits gives people that trust. You know that you don't have to chase the payment, you know what the amount is, you know the timing, and so I think now it's important for businesses to have the right tools, whatever works for your industry, whatever works for your vertical, whatever works for the people on your team, because a lot of it is the people that are actually using the tools and so do you trust that you've got the right solution, the right partner, and do you trust that your team knows how to use those tools really well?