Hiring For Client-Facing Personality

Paul Shrimpling 0:05

Welcome to the Humanize the Numbers podcast series. Leaders, managers, and owners of ambitious accounting firms sharing insights, successes, and issues that will challenge you and connect you and your firm to the ways and means of transforming your firm's results.

Introducing Starfish And B Corp

Georgi Rollings 0:21

I'd say in in terms of how we hire, um, we are more interested in personality and how um how we think somebody's going to interact with clients than we necessarily are about technical ability. Um, you can, up to a point, you can teach additional technical skills, but trying to change somebody who's personality view to be more outgoing is is like a non-starter, really. Um, so up to a point we hire people who are more likely to grow comfort in those sorts of questions. But when somebody comes in, we've got um one of the guys who works for us used to work at Tax Assist, and uh it was quite uncomfortable for him to start off with. Um, and now he's getting quite excited by it. It's like, oh I had this, I had this great call with a client, and and we we talked about this, and and they you could see they were really happy, and it's like, yeah, that's where you get your job satisfaction. Um so it can be hard, but I think you can nudge people along that path if they've got cheery skills underneath it.

Firm Snapshot And Fee Benchmarks

Paul Shrimpling 1:24

There aren't too many B Corp certified accountancy firms, but Georgie Rollins Stylefish has achieved that, and her 12-person team with a core purpose focused on women in business is something to behold, I would argue, because the way she's humanizing the numbers with her clients and her team is making a big difference to her, her co-owner, her team, and her clients, which she shares openly on this podcast and is achieving really solid performance results as a consequence. So look out for her comments on the fees per FTE that she's achieving, or rather, her and her team are achieving. Let's get to that podcast with Georgie now.

Georgi Rollings 2:11

Hi, my name's Georgie Wellings, and I'm founder and co-CEO of Starfish Accounting. Uh, we are a small accounting firm currently of 12 based in Berkshire, so a little bit west of London. Um, and our two preferred niches, which have a bit of an overlap, are supporting women in business, which I think is still a little bit unusual. Um, and also now that we're a B Corp, purpose-led businesses, and which is quite a nice um area for us to kind of muscle into. Um, I set up Starfish when I was off on maternity leave with twins back in 2011 and did it as a bit of a punt uh to see how life worked out, and then it sort of went quite well. So I'm still here. Um, and outside of work, um, I have twins who are 15 um who keep teenage twins. Teenage twins, I have to say, I my girls are lovely, they are the world's nicest teenagers. Um, I'm worried that if now I've said that, I've jinxed it, but they are lovely. Um, my husband uh does thank goodness lots and lots of stuff around the house, or else I don't think I would cope. Um and if I have a bit of downtime, I like to be outside. Uh, I'm not exactly a runner, but I like to go for a nice walk somewhere pretty. Um, and if the weather's awful, um then I'll sit down and do a bit of crochet. I'm crocheting a very large stripey blanket at the moment. So I know not very exciting, but it makes me feel happy.

Paul Shrimpling 3:38

Um, and that's what makes the world go around. Um, so I tend to, you know, great teenagers equals great parenting, doesn't it?

Georgi Rollings 3:45

Really, I think that's yeah, I'm totally taking all the credits.

Paul Shrimpling 3:51

Very good, very good. All right, so um 12 people. How many? I just want to just find out a little bit more about the firm. How many customers, Georgie? How many business customers?

Georgi Rollings 4:02

Um, so business customers, we're we've got a bit about 150-ish, something along those lines. Okay, not huge. 150. Maybe a little bit more at the moment, and sort of total clients, including personal tax dormant companies, all that gubbins, we're a wee bit over 300 these days.

Paul Shrimpling 4:19

All right, okay. But it's the 150 that consume most of your time. Yeah, yeah.

Georgi Rollings 4:23

Indeed.

Paul Shrimpling 4:24

All right, and can you give us an indication as to um the total fees for the firm?

Georgi Rollings 4:32

Yes, um, we've been keeping a bit of an eye on our revenue per FTE. Um, having just hired a couple of people, it's not looking quite where I'd like it to be, but it's around about 90k. Um, and I'm very happy to say that in January we had our first ever six-figure billing month. Right, okay. Um, which uh we were very, very excited by.

Paul Shrimpling 4:54

Yeah, yeah, it's one of those little landmark moments that matters, isn't it? In terms of another sense of progress. So 90k FTE, including the two new hires, yes?

Georgi Rollings 5:02

Yeah.

What Humanise The Numbers Means

Paul Shrimpling 5:03

All right, brilliant. Okay, you know that's one of my magic numbers. So uh it's um so that that's that puts things into context, which is great. Okay, so um, as a listener, I know uh you'll know the next question, which is for you, uh, having run a firm since 2011 and your previous experiences as well. What's your take on the meaning behind the phrase humanize the numbers?

Georgi Rollings 5:27

Uh that's that's one of the phrases that that really resonates, and that's why I have been a longtime listener of your podcast. Um, it's I think your average accountant, let's say 20 years ago, let's not say now, but your average accountant 20 years ago was very, very focused on you spit out um a set of accounts and a tax number. Um, and you see your client once a year to give them the bad news about the tax number, um, and there's not much more to it than that. Um, every single business has an owner that sits behind it, or multiple owners that sit behind it, and they have a team, they um you know possibly have directors, and running a business is a very, very stressful thing to do, um, as I know to my cost, running starfish with um with my business partner. Um, and an accountant, I think, is really there to support the business owner and to make sure that the business is working for that business owner. And the only way you can do that is to really kind of understand that human that sits behind the business and to make sure that you're helping them to understand their numbers in a way that takes account of what it is they're trying to get out of the business and what it is they're they're trying to do with their life. And if you don't humanize the numbers, then that's not a thing.

Paul Shrimpling 6:46

Okay, so it there's I I read into that, Georgie, that um you take seriously the differences, the uniqueness, if you will, of you if you will, of every ownership uh owner stroke owners of the 150 business clients you work with. Um I read into that that you're very curious about them as an individual, not just as a business owner. And I read into that that actually you taking seriously that you have to help them make decisions?

Georgi Rollings 7:20

Yeah, I mean informed decisions, yeah.

Paul Shrimpling 7:22

Informed decisions, okay. Um what is it about see, not every accountant sees themselves as a facilitator of good informed decisions. Why does that matter so much to you and your team?

Georgi Rollings 7:39

I think it's that's a that's that's a difficult question because it it it just it always has done, really. Um I think like I say, running a business is really, really stressful. And if you're sort of waking up at three o'clock in the morning and you're thinking, goodness me, I'm I'm not making enough money and I've got this customer that owes me loads of money, and and do I need to make one of my team redundant? You know, do I need to um shut this particular store because we're not getting enough margin out of that one? Um, all those sorts of questions that that really really stress people out. Um, if they're on their own making those decisions, that's a really horrible place to be. Uh, and as a business owner, you're you're not necessarily going to talk to your spouse because you don't want to stress them out that there might be financial problems heading their way. Uh, you're almost definitely not going to talk to your team about it because you don't want your team to panic and leave and go and get another job. Um, and who who else can you talk to? So it's we're we're really in that sort of I hate the phrase, but that trusted advisor.

Paul Shrimpling 8:39

Um what an overused phrase that is.

Georgi Rollings 8:42

I know it's awful, isn't it? But that couldn't look anything better.

Paul Shrimpling 8:45

Well, I don't think it's it's not awful. It's not awful, it's just uh is it is yeah, it's overused and you know potentially unwarranted if you you know one meeting a year with a client doesn't mean you're a trusted advisor, does it? No. So we'll we'll we'll get into that.

Georgi Rollings 9:00

That's just yeah.

Paul Shrimpling 9:01

But this is about so what you're saying is the answer to my why question is it's you you you take seriously again helping the business leaders avoid that sense of isolation when there's difficulties in the business. But you know, of your 150 clients, there's not difficulties in all of those. Well, don't get me wrong, there's difficulties in every business, isn't there? But you know, there's there's something which doesn't make them feel stressed, isolated, uncomfortable, anxious, whatever you know, words we want to throw into the mix. Um, but you want to help them overcome that sense of isolation and give them a safe space with which to have a meaningful conversation that might make their lives better.

Georgi Rollings 9:40

Yeah. And and even if it's just that that they've got somebody that they can offload on, um, sometimes we can't help somebody to make a decision because it's such a personal thing that they are the only the only one who can make that decision. Um, but I I always think we're basically we're a bit of a counsellor sitting on the side. Uh so I I've often been an early um person to hear that somebody's uh going to go through a divorce. I was talking to a client about it the other day, um, and so far, you know, her husband knows um and her business partner knows, and nobody else does. So she wanted to talk about income levels and how best to be able to separate her finances from her husband. Quite often we're one of the first um people to hear if somebody is expecting a baby, um, or we might get that awful phone call that says, you know, my mum's died, I don't know what to do. What do I what do I do with the with the um probate process, which isn't our area at all, but we we get those sorts of questions, and then it's it's that being able to be a sympathetic ear and possibly steer somebody on to somebody who can help as well.

Paul Shrimpling 10:47

Yeah, that's I've written you you said counsellor, I've written down the phrase sounding board, uh, but I think counselor's a good thing. Yes, that's on our website. Yeah, um count count, there's more uh there's more weight, there's more uh emotion around counselor than there is around sounding board. Sounding board's that logical objective, which fits with who you are as an accountant, but what you're saying is yes, we do that, and there's uh something more at play here which is very personal, which is the counsellor space. And I've got a daughter who's in that space with um uh people who have got mental health challenges, and it's it's um like like this is a bit glib, but forgive me. Hopefully, but like most business owners have got those challenges. Um yeah, the sympathy word, uh sympathetic ear. Um is that what is that what business owners really want from their accountant though, Georgie? Don't they just want the accounts and tax doing?

Georgi Rollings 11:50

I think it depends on the business owner, right? I mean, we are not the right fit for everybody. Um we, I mean, very early doors. If you go onto our website and you fill in the contact form, there are nosy questions from the get-go on the contact form. It's not just what's your email address, what's your business name? Um and the discovery call, we will ask nosy questions. And you know, my business partner's much better at doing this because she she's just really clear about it. So I'm gonna sound really, really nosy, but I'm asking these questions because I need to understand what your situation is. Um, and if if that's the sort of thing that if if somebody doesn't want us to be asking about their goals, then they're gonna be put off us very quickly. So I'd say that there are certain people who don't want that um from their accountant um who won't probably want to work with us. Um, and then there are other people who um don't realize that that's what an accountant can do. Um, and when they've been in that sort of old-fashioned, old school accountant world um where they they feel scared to ask a question because somebody might laugh at them, um, then we can be a bit of a breath of fresh air.

Paul Shrimpling 13:54

Amazing. So I'm giggling only because I've just had the conversation with a very uh the uh CEO, managing director, uh uh managing partner, whatever Lego wants to give himself of a firm that's uh growing very fast. His you know, startup two years ago is gonna do maybe 600k year at the end of year two, all organic growth. Um, you know, really really really savvy. Um we were just having the breath of fresh air conversation. So it's just that's why I'm having a little giggle there. Um and I think you make a very important point, Georgie, that um lots and lots and lots and lots, if not most business owners don't know what they don't know around what's possible by working with an accountant who really cares, is really committed to help, and is really curious. You use the word nosy, um, about them and their business, which puts you in a place to better help them. Um, yeah, yeah, I love that. I love that. Um, so in in you describing uh those insights, it it strikes me that there's we've talked about challenges, difficulties, isolation, so that there's a sounding board counselor around that, but you then also threw the uh uh uh the word goals into the discussion here as well. And I've got this theory that if you pose enough questions around goals and difficulties, you're going to establish a working relationship that's on a completely different plane to talking about cash flow, payroll, uh systems issues, you know. Yes, profitability, capital value, all yeah, but it hang on a second. If we're not having the goals and challenges conversation, then you you've got a transactional relationship as opposed to a human relationship. Unpack that for me and how that fits works for you and Starfish.

Georgi Rollings 15:52

I think if you don't know what somebody's goals are, then you're not really going to, and like you say, it's just going to be transactional, you're not really going to be able to help them. Um, and it's that where do you want to be in in five years' time? Um, you know, if if you're looking to um maintain a lifestyle business, brilliant. We need to look at at making sure that it's gonna cover your um your income, that you need to get out of the business and that it's gonna be done in a tax-sufficient way. Happy days. If you're um yeah, if you're looking to get an investor in the business, then um you've got a different set of challenges. If you're looking to exit the business, how are you gonna do that? Are you gonna sell? Are you just looking to retire and close the business and get the most money out that you possibly can? If you don't understand where somebody's trying to get the business, then you you can't give them the right advice at the right time. Yeah. Um, so I think that that's one of the most important conversations that we have. And and it's not like every conversation we have with a client is what your goals, where are you up to, how are you measuring against your goals? But we'll make we'll make a note of what somebody wants to do and we'll we'll have a sort of little track of where's that client up to and and what support are they going to need to have next.

Paul Shrimpling 17:05

Yeah, brilliant. Um is it as simple as asking that question that you started with is you know, what what are your goals, what do you want to achieve in the next five years? Is it is it as simple as just be brave enough to ask that question?

Georgi Rollings 17:19

Yeah, I think people like to be asked as well. Um, so if if you're talking to a prospect and they can see that you're genuinely interested in in what they're trying to do, I think they warned you more and then it becomes, again, less of a transactional conversation. So they're not quite as worried about is this going to cost 20 quid more a month than the next accounting firm down the road? Like, oh, I want to work with this person because they care about what I'm doing. Um, so I think there are all sorts of things that become easier if you take an interest. Um, and it helps us do a better job, helps us to have a better relationship with them without wishing to sound really sort of greedy about it, helps us to understand what the upselling opportunities are, um, all that sort of stuff. It all comes from asking questions.

Paul Shrimpling 18:04

Yeah. Um how good are your team at that skill of asking questions?

Cheery Skills And Accounting In AI

Georgi Rollings 18:12

Um it's something that doesn't come easily to everybody. Right. Um I'd say in in terms of how we hire, um, we are more interested in personality and how um how we think somebody's going to interact with clients than we necessarily are about technical ability. Um, you can up to a point you can teach additional technical skills, but trying to change somebody's personality view to be more outgoing is is like a non-starter, really. Yeah, yeah. Um, so up to a point we hire people who are more likely to grow comfort in those sorts of questions. But when somebody comes in, we've got um one of the guys who works for us used to work at Tax Assist, and uh it was quite uncomfortable for for him to start off with. Um, and now he's getting quite excited by it. It's like, well, I had this, I had this great call with a client, and and we we talked about this, and and they you could see they were really happy, and it's like, yeah, that's where you get your job satisfaction. Um so it it can be hard, but I think you can nudge people along that path if they've got yeah, I've I've just come up.

Paul Shrimpling 19:25

The what skills, sorry.

Georgi Rollings 19:27

Uh, cheery skills. I couldn't think of it. We tend to call it fluffy, you need to be a bit fluffy.

Paul Shrimpling 19:31

Um the cheery skills that beats soft skills, doesn't it? Um cheers. Um, not sure about that fluffy thing. Um, it's because the the uh the there's there's an appetite and a and a dialogue going on in the profession around or we need to teach soft skills, and my response to that is soft skills, right? Actually, I think most of the team will find them quite hard, so I'm not sure that's the right late, that's the right label. Um, but I mean I'm interested to hear uh George. So um how we hire uh looking for someone who's got personable skills, yes, the communication skills. Um yes, the technical skills, but the personable stuff matters more. Um wondering if uh this might sound a blatantly obvious and almost dumbass question, but um it's almost as if that's more important in an AI world that's you know coming at us like a train. Um we've already been hit by the train, it's just rolling over us now, isn't it? Let's guess, um, but in a good way, uh, because it creates all sorts of opportunities. Um, what are your thoughts about that? Is is is it a case of yes, that personality relationship building stuff is probably even more important than it's ever been because um every comp everyone can drop into Claude or Chat GPT or Glock or whatever their favourite is and and pose questions and get the technical insights, but um, will it will they have the confidence to make the decisions? They perhaps need to speak to someone. I don't know. What's your thinking on that?

Georgi Rollings 21:04

I five million percent agree with you. Um hiring for fit used to be more important because we didn't want to cause havoc within a happy team. Um every now and again we we've had a hire who's not been terribly successful, and you can really see that that sort of bedding in period is is kind of painful. So we we've done it to try and protect the team. The last couple of years it's been um much more. Are they going to be able to cope with the future of accounting? Which is you're gonna have more and more your AI terribly clever assistant that's gonna do a lot of the heavy lifting for you from a technical perspective, yeah. Um, and it's it's turning that into a lovely humanized thing for your clients, right? Um you know, a client is going to get to the point, no doubt, sooner or later, where a lot of people will think they'll be able to do it themselves. I've I've been reading all sorts of things on LinkedIn on I built this thing that did my attach return for me. Um, and there'll be more and more and more of that, and we'd be absolute fools if we didn't think that was going to happen. Um, so we need to look for those clients who actively want to have a friendly face that talks to them about their tax return. Um, so I think if if we're not hiring for people who've got that really, really sort of nice personality, the outward-facing personality, um, I'm not sure they're going to have a long future in the business anyway. Right. Because we we need them.

Purpose Led Work With Women

Paul Shrimpling 22:36

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It is where the differential against, if you I'm not sure against the right phrase but or the right word, but against if we're competing with what AI can do, then we need to step into the human space even more, I think is what uh what we're agreeing on. Um with cheery skills, yes of course. So your reputation at Starfish then is good as because you've got and it's you know lovely to talk to a firm who another firm who's achieved um B Corp status and done the legwork behind that. So you are purpose-led. How do you describe your firm's purpose?

Georgi Rollings 23:21

Oh, you do ask difficult questions, don't you?

Paul Shrimpling 23:24

Um I couldn't not, I couldn't produce you you started it with B Corp and purple.

Georgi Rollings 23:31

I only have myself to blame, I know. Um so so back in the day when I first set up Starfish, um the the purpose at that at that point, um we used to we used to describe it as we were on a mission to help women in business. Um, and part of that was um I I've I've had a very happy life, don't get me wrong, um, and compared to what other people have been through, you know, any struggles I've had are minute and I am absolutely not complaining. But I've sat there in that sexism kind of space. I've been the only woman in the room. Um, I've been ignored, um, I've been uh not invited to strip clubs um at the end of the day with all the lads. Um you know, I've not been uh included on certain jobs because the kind didn't want a woman there back in my um big four days. Yeah, format. I was told that I had to wear a skirt suit, not a trouser suit. So there's all sorts of little things there that um that rankled um in a low-key kind of a way. And um I'm you know, I've had many conversations over the last 15 years with um people who have had a an old school male accountant where they felt that they were looked down on because it was a lifestyle business and because they wanted to be able to set their business up in a way that enabled them to do the school run, um, and they wouldn't have a call uh during the school run. So, and and they wanted somebody who got that um and would um not um look down on them and and would give them the time that they needed. So, to start off with, it was very much sort of supporting people in that kind of space. Um and I think as as time's gone on, I've had like personal passions, if you like. Um, again, many, many years ago, I was a member of Greenpeace, I've been a member of the RSPV since um since I was a child, um, you know, various different things like that, where environment is really important to me. And it always felt like that was such a separate thing from work, that I I couldn't find a way to make the two kind of aligned. Um, and then I discovered that B Corp was a thing. Um, and I discovered that actually I could um bring that in and make the business demonstrate that we take all sorts of ways of operating seriously. One of the reasons that we we I mean we didn't have too many difficulties getting through all the B Corp hoops, and one of the reasons for that is that we are very female dominated and that ticks a lot of B Corp boxes, but there are other things out there as well that were also important. Um, and suddenly it feels like the the business is is more and more sort of in that space. And actually, I I did it as a passion project, and then much to my surprise, it also turns out it's quite a good way to get extra clients. I really wasn't expecting that. I didn't do it as a marketing gig at all. Oh, right, okay. That was gonna be interesting prospects in a B Corpse.

Paul Shrimpling 26:29

Right, right, okay. Because it's interesting, yeah, you know, brilliant. And we'll we'll we'll we'll uh I think you know, work out who you want to work with and who you don't want to work with. Um and actually if you can get um uh certification the right right words, I'm not sure, but if you you know uh B Corp then opens up or demonstrates that you're interested in a certain type of business, or business owners who think they also should be in that space as well, but haven't you quite yet made it. I'm just wondering what sort of businesses have come to you as a consequence of your um B Corp status now.

Georgi Rollings 27:06

Um so we've we've had some straight off of the B Corp directory, uh so we're we're listed on there, and um they've been looking for an accountant that's going to fit their values. Um, and they range from sort of um, let's see, we've had a handful of online retail type businesses, um, some fashion, uh some in in wine importing. Uh obviously I I like wine, so I feel that there's a strong, strong alignment there. Yeah, yeah, I get that. I get that. Um yeah, through to some more sort of service-based businesses. So we've got uh a lawn for law firm that are on the way to becoming B Corp, um, a mortgage advisor that's on the way to becoming V Corp. So there's um it's it's on both sides. Um so it's not like we have a flood of them, but the people who come in tend to be really interesting. Um and like you say, you're then working with um with people that you want to work with.

Paul Shrimpling 27:59

So it all kind of looks beautifully. Yeah, this passion then it gets released, doesn't it? That maybe otherwise wouldn't have uh have been released. Okay, so um so far the conversation in that humanize the numbers space has been very much around uh uh clients um and very much in the human space, not in the numbers space. I'm just wondering, you know, what what are the um I'm trying to hunt for specific things you do that a leader or manager of you know, a client manager with their own portfolio in a large firm, small firm doesn't matter, managing part of a big firm, small firm doesn't matter. Um, you know, the the the the one or two key skills in this um yeah, let's have a cheery skills, nosy, personable uh conversation. What what's what's the um what's the nugget that you want all of your team and would therefore recommend to the profession uh the the those uh crown jewel skills that just un start a conversation and takes you out of transactional into and let's say the trusted advisor space because you've earned the right to call be called that because you're having a conversation that is trustworthy.

Values That Protect Client Trust

Georgi Rollings 29:18

Um what do we look for? That's probably the easiest place to start, isn't it? Um can I can I kind of rewind a couple of steps and go down the sort of values route?

Paul Shrimpling 29:30

Uh go for it. Go for it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Georgi Rollings 29:33

Um I I know it's all a bit of a buzzword these days. Um make sure you you've done your values and you've got it on your website and dardy dadi darts and we have our values.

Paul Shrimpling 29:42

Do you mean it's mostly corporate bullshit, Georgie? Is that what you mean?

Georgi Rollings 29:45

I I the I think it's one of the areas that is prone to corporate bullshit. Right. Um and yeah, I I spent many years working in corporates, uh, so you know, mission statement and all that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, but I think like we've we've got our values on the website, you can go and read about them if you feel feel so minded. Um, but one of the things that we do when we interview for the for the team is we'll ask behavioural questions around those values to see whether or not um there's something that that sort of sit within that individual. Um so it's it's things like um sounds really basic, I think most of ours are, like setting expectations and how important that is, um, which is both an outward-facing thing to the client. So if the client wants to have a set of accounts and you've told them that you're going to do them by the middle of February, then you need to do them by the middle of February. And if you don't do them by the middle of February, then you really need to go back to the client and reset that expectation and not just sit your head in the sand and ghost the client when they're chasing you. So it sounds really basic, right? But that also works internally as well. So we've all got to work well together. Sometimes the firm can be a stressful place if we've got deadlines or if somebody's off sick and we need to cover or whatever it is. Um, so if we don't know what somebody is struggling with, then we can't help. Um, so it's also being able to have that confidence to stick your hand up and go, um, actually, I know I said I was going to get all this stuff done, but right now I'm buried because this other thing's come in as well. And can somebody help me? Um, because um I don't think I'm gonna be able to get this done this week. Um, rather than waiting till Friday and then sitting there at five o'clock going, well, I'm I'm done for the week, uh, but I didn't do all this stuff, and actually there's a deadline that falls tomorrow. Sorry about that. Um, and it's it's looking for ways to figure out whether or not the team are going to be able to live and breathe those values because I think that's another thing that you can't teach. They kind of sit innately within somebody and you can encourage things and um reassure somebody they're not going to be penalized for something, but you can't teach it. Um, does that answer your question at all? Have I gone off a tangent?

Paul Shrimpling 32:01

I don't think so, because I think what you're saying is there's uh questions about the simple practical um expectations the client has around the timing of work. We we you might have questions around the quality of work, but I don't think so because it's sort of assumed that you're going to do the right job at the right standard, and and they wouldn't necessarily understand whether it was the right standard or not.

Georgi Rollings 32:26

Yeah, that that's exactly what I'm saying.

Paul Shrimpling 32:29

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So what you call them behavioral questions, questions around timing. Yeah. But I do, I do think there's also uh an important insight there around what you're doing is you're setting a standard. I think people talk glibly about expectations, but when you start to introduce, well, we're gonna make a promise or we're gonna set a standard that we're gonna live by, uh, you know, that that's different. And I think if if we're posing questions to establish those expectations and our core values are anchored to we do what we say we're gonna do when we say we're gonna do it, um, then we've also, and you say this, have to create a safe space for the team to be able to speak out if any of that um has got jeopardy attached to it, so that we can manage it in advance in order to main that maintain that trust with the client so that they stay with us, buy more, pay more, and recommend us more. Um, I think um so it's I I'm I'm I'm stood here uh frustrated that there isn't um the clarity in every firm that we work with, and every firm we've never worked with, around just let's get crystal clear on the speed of the work, the timing of the work, let's get crystal clear on so there are expectations there, there are expectations around how they want the relationship to work, you know. Uh simply, you know, how often do you want to meet? How often do should we be talking?

Georgi Rollings 33:59

You know, how do you want to be communicated with? You know, which channel. Would you rather be chased by a phone call, WhatsApp, email, text message?

Paul Shrimpling 34:06

Absolutely, yeah, yeah, yeah. And that uh it sounds sorts of things, but it's not, it's seriously not. Um, you know, we've worked with firms that have transformed their tax return performance in terms of flatlining the tax return curve by simply establishing the client's favourite form of communication and communicating with them around their information so that you can complete the tax return. So if they're a WhatsApp fan, then you're communicating with that client on WhatsApp. If they're a TikTok fan, then go down. If they're an Insta fan, go down there. I mean um it's uh anyway. Everyone's doing the best they can in the space that they want to work in and they've got their favourite um uh way of comms. But bottom line is the practical outcome of that is yes, let's take the communication strategy, the communication preferences rather seriously, the timing, and um what are they hoping to get, which is then all of a sudden we're having a goals conversation again. So the answer to my question, I think, is just ask more better questions and then do what you said you would do, what you agreed to do.

Georgi Rollings 35:12

Um you don't always get it right, you know. Absolutely lying if I said we always get it right. Um but I think the the other really important thing is when you don't get it right, um, the and and some one of your clients goes to the effort of telling you that rather than just going, I'm done, then it's how you react as well. Um, and you you have to take those concerns seriously, and you have to be shown to be doing something about it. Yeah, I think some of our most loyal clients are ones where we haven't got it right and they've flagged it and we fixed it, and we've made damn sure that that's not happened again.

Paul Shrimpling 35:52

Yeah, that's one of the greatest gifts that a business can provide you is we messed up if you manage it in a brilliant way. I was um I was once party to a story from a guy called Jay Abraham, who was one of the greatest uh marketing thinkers of all time, in my view. And uh Jay told a story at an event I was attending with him. Um uh, and he said, I'd I'd like to know how to ethically do something which I know I haven't been able to resolve it because he's got a client, a consulting client, who'd grown from uh 8 million turnover to 180 million turnover in 18 months.

Georgi Rollings 36:34

Oh, blind without acquisition, and so not sure they want to do that in all honesty. That sounds like a recipe for disaster.

Paul Shrimpling 36:44

Yeah, absolutely, yeah. No, indeed, indeed. And so, you know, everyone's listening to this and going, You're having a laugh, that's not possible. So let's just halve that and halve it again, just for and and and maybe maybe the quantum was down there, but I just remember the um eight, one, eighty, eighteen months was an easy sequence of numbers to remember. Um, and um they were deadly serious about helping their clients, uh, and that which is the space you're in. Uh, so if we're committed to helping clients and match their expectations around relationship quality and timing, then you're going to be in a good space, according to that story. Now, Jay told another story, which was it was a garden center, and they sold um lawn mowers, and um uh they they sought referrals from their lawn mower customers actively. They had this process, uh cards and flowers and stuff, um, and they got five times as many referrals from lawn mowers that didn't work properly when they were delivered because their process for dealing with the problematic lawn mower was so good everybody wanted to talk about it, and so they got f and and and Jay wanted to, and he was asking an audience about 200 people who paid 15 grand each to be in the room, which is remarkable. Um, how can they ethically sell broken lawn mowers? Um, but for me, it just that that story stood out and going, oh look, we've got a problem. Fantastic! We've cocked up for a client, fantastic. Here's an opportunity to do something fast, brilliantly, in an apologetic, humble, not obnoxious or pompous way uh to establish another level of credibility. I love that. Uh, thank you for reminding me of that story, it's just so good. Um, okay, so the numbers matter to the clients, the personable stuff matters to the clients. It sounds like you put the emphasis on the personable stuff rather than the numbers stuff, Georgie.

Georgi Rollings 38:56

Um, so how is it the numbers stuff's the given, right? Every accountant should be able to do the numbers stuff.

Paul Shrimpling 39:02

Yeah.

Georgi Rollings 39:02

So if that that's the basic, um, we we don't we don't we don't get excited about achieving that. I think that's the thing.

Transparency And Flexibility With The Team

Paul Shrimpling 39:10

Cool. It's um that's what we do, it's the way that we do it that really matters, and that's the human space, isn't it? Yeah, cool. Yeah, very good, very good. Uh so let's just uh uh just turn the prism around a little bit and go, right, humanize numbers. How do you do that with your team?

Georgi Rollings 39:26

Oh, we are super open with the team. Um uh Emma, my business partner, will kill me because I'm about to use the J word, um, but I think it's really important to take the team with us on the journey. Um we we want the team to understand what it is we're trying to do and why, and we want them to believe in it and to be invested in it. And if we do that and we don't tell them when things are tough, we don't tell them if we've hit an exciting revenue target, we don't tell them who we're planning to hire and when, then how can we expect them to be excited about it? Um so we we probably overshare, if anything, with the team um and and you know, really try and make sure that that they um understand what it is we're we're trying to do and that they benefit from it as well.

Paul Shrimpling 40:12

Okay, so that's another tick in the box for B Corp, isn't it? Because there's that open transparency around the performance of the business that you share. Indeed. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know this because we are investigating that at the minute. So Okay.

Georgi Rollings 40:23

And it was another thing where I was like going through all of it, I was like, oh yeah, we we do that already, that's fine. Um quite nice.

Paul Shrimpling 40:29

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Indeed. Indeed. So super open overshare in order to build belief in that your team are on the right journey with the right people, with the right firm. Yeah. Um, I'm just looking for some detail in that space because it just feels a little bit general. Um we're sharing um yes, uh wins, yes, problems, difficulties, yes, the um financial performance of the business to some degree. Uh otherwise you wouldn't have got B-Call. Um what else?

Georgi Rollings 41:09

What else? Um, so I mean, like like most people will, we have um quarterly off-site meetings with the team um where we go through goals for the quarter. Um again, we don't always do it terribly well, but that that is very definitely the plan. So we try and take them away from the office so they're not tempted to pick up the phone when it rings or deal with an email or whatever it is. Um and um yeah, that that's our opportunity to say this is what we managed to do, this is what we didn't manage to do, um, and this is what we're we're planning to do over the next um three months, 12 months.

Paul Shrimpling 41:46

So you're sacrificing chargeable time, if if that's a thing. Uh chargeable time to invest in the team being aware of how well we've done and what we're doing next with a quarterly cadence. All right, how do you know that that works?

Georgi Rollings 42:03

Um I'd love to say that we measured something that showed that it worked, but I would be totally lying. Um we it I I'd say gut feel on that one. Um we've we've been much more intentional about that over the last 18 months or so. We used to be really good at that, and then COVID hit, um, and then we got out of the habit of in-person meetings, and um, you know, we we started bringing it back in again because one or two of the team who'd been with us for a long time said, we are missing these meetings. It's like, okay, right, right. Um, so we we actually acted on on feedback from the team on that. Um, and it's it's not just the the quarterly meetings, so we we also um with each of the team we do um quarterly performance reviews, so it's looking at how they're functioning within their job, what they need to do to potentially get to the point of of being promoted, or what they need to do to master their job better. Um, we have regular meetings, um, I'm just gonna talk about meetings now, aren't I? Um but things like um we have a weekly onboarding meeting where we sit down with a couple of the team who do a lot of the stuff around client onboarding and to make sure that everything's being done properly so people are all being treated in a consistent way. So I think a lot of what we do is is try to make sure that um like we can be really good at excellent client service, right? On one or two clients, but how do we make sure that we're replicating that and that it's not just he who shouts the loudest that gets the best client service? How do we make sure that everybody that comes in starts feeling the starfish love from a kind of early point? Um, and sometimes we'll then take something from that, have a quarterly team meeting and say, we need to improve how quickly we go back to phone calls into the office. You know, there's all sorts of things that kind of roll around as a result.

Paul Shrimpling 43:52

Yeah, yeah. Um, so quarterly offsite, quarterly performance reviews. There's a weekly client onboarding meeting which keeps that onboarding piece ticking along for every new client so that it doesn't extend out to oh, we still haven't got this after three months or six months or whatever it ends up being. Yeah, I like that a lot actually. Um, because it's a you know, what is it that phrase you you never get a second chance to make a first impression? That onboarding piece is essentially setting the stall about how you work together, isn't it, with the client and create some um boundaries, expectations, management, and so on. Um, very good. Um, uh just because I'm really interested in this human space, so what what other interactions one-on-one or team are going on? So I was thinking what's going on every day, what's going on every week, what's going on every month, and what's going on every quarter. So I've got two quarterly pieces, I've got one weekly piece, what else is going on every week? Because I think that's the magic cadence, the magic rhythm in most businesses.

Georgi Rollings 44:47

Um, so I've got personally, I've got two direct reports. Um, I have a A regular meeting every Monday if we're both working with one of them to make sure that we've got that opportunity to focus on the next sort of deadlines that are coming up, any issues, and again a little bit of touching back on development stuff, so it's not just at a quarterly point and then we forget about it to the next quarter and go, oh bugger, we never did that. The other uh one of my direct ports is our operations manager. So we don't officially have a formal meeting every week, but we uh we tend to sit down a couple of times every week just to make sure we're on top of all the things. Right. Um, and then the same happens elsewhere in the business. So Christopher reports into me, who gets the weekly meeting on the Monday, he then has a weekly meeting with each of the people who sit in his pod. Um, so it's it's trying to make sure that uh nobody's overloaded because meetings can become a bit of a um not a constructive use of time. And so at one point we were having weekly in-person team meetings, and those just felt like it was more of an opportunity to for everybody to sit down and have a bit of an attack. So you can do that at lunch, and so it's trying to make sure that the meetings that we're having have um they're in they have purpose. Um so it's we've got an agenda, presumably, Georgie. Yeah, exactly. So we have an agenda for certain things, and you know, we we have a format for the career development reviews, and um, but then it's also um, I would say an open door policy, but to be honest, I shut the door to the office um on you know many times a day because I can be quite annoying when I'm on calls and things. Um, but it is that trying to create a safe space so that if there's problems that they can be flagged, and it doesn't need to be um uh a work problem, it can be a personal problem. Um so one of the team um has issues at the moment, one of her um kids is is um is unwell. So it's how can we support the team member around that?

Paul Shrimpling 46:50

And navigate.

Georgi Rollings 46:51

Um and one of the ways that that we function and and one of the reasons that we did we found the B Court process quite easily and quite easy to get through is we are super flexible. And yeah, a lot of accounting firms or a lot of businesses these days will say flexible working, but what they mean is that you have to be in the office on the days that they say you have to be in the office. And if you really want to be at home on the other day or two, then fine, you can do that. We're genuinely flexible. One of the team worked out of Thailand for three weeks, um, one of the team worked, um, her father sadly died of cancer um a year and a half ago, and um, on the run up to that for 12 months, she would go and spend chunks of time up working from the northwest so she could be there for her mum. Um, and we we really mean it, it's it's but it's genuinely flexible. So it's it's understanding when somebody's got an issue how we can best support them so they can carry on doing a good job for us in a way that means that their personal life can take priority.

Paul Shrimpling 47:51

Yeah, it's uh you know, health first, family second, business third. But it can all work.

Georgi Rollings 47:57

Health, sorry, what's health? Health, health, health family first, isn't it?

Paul Shrimpling 48:00

And then well, you you can't look after your family if yourself aren't uh anyway, whichever running order you want to go. Family health, health, family uh business. Um and I know and we're we're in the same space, our team very much appreciate that as well. Um, whether it be them, their kids, their parents. Um please forgive this brief interruption, but we've we've just been talking about psychological safety in the discussion with Georgie. If you want to dive deeper into what is a profoundly valuable topic for building team engagement and enthusiasm, go to the show notes and look out for the business breakthrough on psychological safety. Let's get back to the discussion with Georgie now. Uh I'm wondering what whether that pays off on the bottom line, Georgie, just to put a you know hard-nosed um it cuts down in our recruitment costs. How do you know?

Georgi Rollings 48:54

We we we have a very loyal team, so we we have very low staff turnover. Um so it will reflect on the bottom line because we don't have that um punchy recruitment cost, the the getting somebody up and running costs when we do that nine times out of ten, it's because it's a new role and the business is growing. Um so so it is good from that point of view. Um, I'm I'm sure I've also read many statistics around um if the team is happy, then you get more output from them. Um so one one assumes that that's the case. Um, we certainly put a lot of of uh importance on making sure that the team is supported and happy.

Paul Shrimpling 49:31

Yeah, you know, there's I guess there's some common sense, isn't there? That I think most people would agree with that. If you care for your team, you stand a fighting chance that they might care for your business and your clients, but if you don't care for them, there's probably not going to. Um and they might do the job, but they're not, you know, they're not coming at it wholeheartedly. Um and you know, it's um very loyal team. What about very loyal clients? How does that play out?

Georgi Rollings 49:59

Yeah, um I I haven't done any stats recently, I'm afraid, on how long clients stay with us. Um, but we we don't have massive um turnover of clients. We we had a bad year in 2024. Um we lost a couple of big clients, um, one got bought, and they obviously the acquirer had their own accountant.

Paul Shrimpling 50:19

Out of your hands, that's it. Yeah, out of your hands.

Georgi Rollings 50:22

Yeah, another one went off to a big accounting firm. Um, they've subsequently come back. Um because I think it's important when clients leave and when team leave that you make sure that you leave things on the best possible note. That's what I did in my corporate days. If I left a job, I would always leave on the best possible note because you don't know what's going to come back in the future. Um, so we've had clients who've gone and then come back, even like a small tax return client, she's like, You're too pricey, and she came back three years later and suddenly there's no quibble on the fee. Um so you know, we we do lose clients sometimes. Sometimes we lose clients that we want to lose as well, and that that's always a joyful thing.

Paul Shrimpling 51:01

Yeah, yeah. And there's you know, there's something healthy about that little bit of churn that actually makes you think a little bit and work a little bit harder as well. Um, but I'm I'm in agreement, you know, manage manage with grace how it ends with a team member, how it ends with a client, how it even ends with a prospect that never said yes, could because um your reputation happens in those moments. Um and if you you know if you're doing you know uh 90k per full-time employee equivalent, having just recruited two new fresh people who aren't yet contributing to that, so you're probably looking at about 100k, 12 people. Um, you know, there's uh it points to the fact that it's it's working. It's working.

Georgi Rollings 51:44

Um always more to do, Paul is always more.

Paul Shrimpling 51:47

There's always more. You know, we've got you know, I've I was with a firm this week and they've got and and this isn't meant to you know upset anyone on the call, on the on the who's listening into this, but you know, they've they've just hit 160k per full-time employee.

Georgi Rollings 52:01

And you know, that would be a happy, happy moment, wouldn't it?

Paul Shrimpling 52:04

Wouldn't it? That's a um but and and ambitious to go to the next stage. Now, don't get me wrong, that's a specialist firm, and you would expect that to be the case in if they've got a you know specialist service line. Um, but we've also got you know general practitioners who are doing 120, 140k. So there's there's absolutely more at your disposal. It's just working out how you manage that from a pricing point of view, a team engagement point of view, a client selection point of view, and the what we call the five levers of FTE growth is is get them sorted. Um I guess what I should do now I've brought that up is I'll put in the show notes our um summary of the five levers of FTE growth. I'll send it to you anyway, Georgie. Um uh so that people can access that if they if they want to take that seriously. Um, but it sounds as though you're ticking a lot of boxes that would generate you a high team engagement score if you tracked and measured team engagement as a as a number.

Georgi Rollings 53:02

Um we don't do it very often. Um we did do it as part of something else um a few months ago, and all but two of the teams scored as a 10.

Growth Plans And Productivity Tracking

Paul Shrimpling 53:13

Right, well, yeah. So you're in the top echelons of team engagement by definition. Um very good, very good. So uh what's the um what's the key challenge facing you going? We we were having a conversation, January is just out of the way, we're in February. Um this would be published later in the year. Um just wondering, you know, going forward into late 26, into 27 and beyond, what's um what's whizing around your head as being the key challenge or opportunity that's facing starfish?

Georgi Rollings 53:45

Um ours is quite inward looking. So I know there's a lot of stuff going on in the industry that obviously we're trying to pay lots of attention to. Um, but it's it's felt like we spend 2025, second half of 2024 um trying to fix some things that weren't working as well as we wanted them to work. Um so things like we switched our practice management software, for example. Um, we've got a lot more focus, and we've we've gone to time tracking, which I'd always avoided like the plague. But how do you know where productivity is an issue if you don't track time? So eventually we've sucked up and gone down that route much to my much to my sorrow. Um yeah, and the team have been fairly receptive to that actually. Well, they have to say team engagement just gone down.

unknown 54:30

Yeah. Okay.

Georgi Rollings 54:35

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we did do that after we've been getting them to track time. So um, but so yeah, they they didn't like the sound of it initially, but it's it's more for us when we're looking at our pricing to make sure that we're if we're losing money on a job, we know about it really. Um, so we've we've done a lot of kind of groundwork stuff. Um so the plan now is growth, um, and it is trying to carry on hiring. So we're looking to hire potentially um a new team member every quarter, might not be full-time. So our most recent um hire is a three-day a week, and so it doesn't have to be full-time, but um, we know who our we know which roles our next two hires are going to be, um, and we have to have the revenue growth to go with that. Um, so we've been doing a lot of work around how to attract interesting businesses in, um, and then it's got to be then that that onboarding journey, sorry Emma, um, is increasingly important because if we get a really interesting business in, we need to make sure they're looked after. Um, and if we've got more and more of them coming in, actually that's quite time consuming. Um so it is looking at how to how to harness growth and do it in a controlled and non-scary way.

Annual Repricing And The Advisory Gap

Paul Shrimpling 55:55

Right, okay. So if there's you know four four mechanisms for fee growth, um you just part profit for the minute, but if you manage your costs, you'll win that. Um you've got uh price increases, um, selling additional services, new clients, retain existing clients. So we've already had the retain existing clients conversation, so that looks as though that's pretty solid. Um so you're looking at um the way you've talked there, the the the main focus is new clients. Is that because you've maximized what you can get from a decent pricing process and maximise what you can get from a cross-selling perspective?

Georgi Rollings 56:30

So we're pretty good on our pricing. Um we've um been through various iterations of pricing software over the years. Uh so we were with GoProposal for for quite a long chunk of time and now we've moved on to Socket. Um, I think you were chatting to the Socket founder. Now I think he's a superstar. Not very long ago. Um massive fan of Socket. So we we are very rigorous with our pricing. We do a renewal for every client every year, even if it's just dormant accounts, tax returns, everybody gets repriced. Um, we yeah, it's it's a lot of work, um, but it's worth it. Um, and it gives people the opportunity to go if they're not happy, it gives us the opportunity to add on services, you know, all sorts of things that work really well around that. Um, we do do price increases sort of across the board as well. So, you know, like five percent, we've done a five percent increase this year on most services.

Paul Shrimpling 57:25

Okay, uh uh thank you, thank you, thank you for sharing that. Um because it's just an opportunity every firm has got, but they think, oh, we haven't got the time to um it's so important. Have a conversation with the clients every year about what services they want to buy and what they don't want to buy. And by the looks of things, if I've got my maths wrong, put me right, Georgie. But if you've got 150 active business clients and um you're approximately a million pound turnover firm, then it doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out what your average fee is. Um, and it you know it's gonna be four grand, five grand if you've got the tax returns and the other bits and pieces, it looks as though it's gonna be in that space. Um, and then I can jump to conclusions straight away around what your top ten or top 20 clients look like, which um uh but as a as an average fee, if you're north of 4K, you're um you you know for firms of the equivalent scale of your firm and bigger would would bite your right hand off of that. Well, how does that happen? Well, it happens because you reprice the job every year with every client, is how it happens, in an elegant, professional, caring way that's designed to help the client, which is clearly what you're all about. Brilliant.

Georgi Rollings 58:42

Yeah, absolutely. And it sometimes it goes down, doesn't just go up, you know, climate change in circumstances. But you keep the client, that's absolutely fine. We support them with that as well. Yeah. Um, so yeah, I think pricing were quite good. Um good. And it's been a lot of work over the years, but yeah, I absolutely would do the same all over again. Um, the additional services is an interesting one. We um, if you talk about uh what all accountants are told that we should do, right? More advisory, um, I'd say we are massively undertapping our existing client base for that. We've never cracked advisory. Um, we are very much a compliance-based firm, so there's definitely opportunity for extra services across our client base if we could ever crack it. Yeah um and then there's there's new services as well. So, for example, carbon accounting feels like an obvious thing for us to bolt on, particularly in the case. In the B coach space, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so that's something we're kind of scoping out and making. There's there's a couple of really interesting tools out there which work with our existing software stack. And so there's new new things that we can do as well. So there's a lot of scope in that space, but in a way, um, it feels like getting new clients is easier.

Paul Shrimpling 59:57

Wow. Right. Well, that's a sign that you've maxed out the uh cross-selling piece, other than that advisory space, which is a little bit amorphous, but um, you know, uh there are definitely things you can do in that space because so many firms have. Um very good, very good. So what's your what's you I'm just curious now as to what your key uh attract new clients uh plan consists of. What's the um what are your top three elements? And you can say, look, sort of, Paul, I'm not giving away my secrets, so that would be a fair response.

Georgi Rollings 1:00:30

Ah, give away all my secrets, that's no problem. Uh somebody's got to go to the effort of doing it, haven't they?

Paul Shrimpling 1:00:34

Um ideas are cheap, action isn't. Yeah.

Marketing After AI Killed SEO

Georgi Rollings 1:00:38

There you go, exactly. Um we we had to have a massive rethink. Uh so I've already mentioned that 2024 was a tough year. One of the reasons that year was tough was we lost a couple of big chunks of business and a couple of smaller bits, and we were not bringing things in the way we always have. Um, we were a very content marketing heavy um firm, um, did it before it was trendy. Um so I was blogging back in 2012, got clients in just because we had a blog, you know, da-da-da-da-da. So we had some blogs that would rank very highly for random searches, like, you know, what is turnover was one of my favorites because we were on the first page of Google for what is turnover, which is great. So we used to get loads of clients in off the website. Um, and we kind of had an all eggs in one basket approach to our marketing. Um, like we do socials, we have a newsletter, you know, but um really it was it was content marketing and then all the things that sort of feed into that. Uh and then our AI happened, uh, and AI content happened, and AI content flooding the internet happened, and suddenly we don't get ranked for anything anymore, and people don't even click through to a website because they look at whatever Google AI shows up, and I do the same thing. Um, so we we had to do a massive rethink. So, our um two biggest ways of getting clients in now are all around relationships. Um, so we've gone old school, we went back to networking, we've found a really, really nice networking um group, series of groups um in our area, which has worked out really well for us. And we've also found some brilliant suppliers through that as well. Um, and we've been quite blatant with certain clients about asking for referrals, which we would never have done before. So I'd say it's it's referrals and it's networking. And uh yeah, three years ago, I'd say, Oh no, you don't do networking, why would we bother doing that? Waste of time. You live and learn, and I know that's only two, and you wanted three, but you know, everything else is is number three.

KPIs That Predict Client Lifetime Value

Paul Shrimpling 1:02:39

It is still we still do some of the content marketing of the website, and um just to support what you're doing, uh you know, been in this space 24 years now, and um client referrals and referrals from introducers, how do you find them? Probably in a networking meeting. So, networking plus referrals is uh the are the two engine rooms that deliver or can deliver consistent new clients. And if your messaging is really good in terms of what you want, what you don't want, what you do, what you don't do, um you can um wash out the time wasters at the front end rather than uh investing loads of time seeing kissing lots of frogs on your prince, prince or princess or other. Um, no, very good, very good. Um, Georgie, uh the uh time's flown by uh it's there's some uh things that you're clearly doing exceptionally well in and around that um human engagement with your um clients and your team, uh which just shows in terms of client loyalty, fees per FTE, team loyalty. Um the uh standout for me is that the fact that you are and continue to generate a pricing proposal, have a conversation with every client every year in some way, shape, or form, um is uh an opportunity every firm uh could make more of. And every firm that we've worked with where we've helped them do that, it has made a profound difference. I've got a firm who's in the process of doing that at the moment, and in December managed to speak to eight clients and washed in 14,750 pounds more fees than they had before. Uh some of that was cross-sales, some of that was just pure price increases. Um, so he's just he's not surprisingly because he's done it, done it again in January. I don't know his results in January because I'm seeing him next week. Um, then he's gonna do it again in February, he's just gonna keep that until it that runs out of steam. Well, it doesn't ever run out of steam, the numbers might decrease because he max it out, but ultimately um he's gonna transform his profitability this year without any shadow of a doubt. Um, and he's essentially doing what you're already doing. Um, I'm wondering what stood out for you on this podcast discussion that um has made you go, hmm, I need to take that more seriously, or I'm doing that really well. I'm just looking for the um, you know, it's been fairly wide-ranging. Well, what what one thing's made you think a little bit more, or has given you something to take away and maybe uh do something with, if that's not too much.

Georgi Rollings 1:05:14

Yeah, it's I think I think I'm gonna go down the it's an embarrassing admission for an accountant. Uh, there are certain things that you've asked where I'm like, oh we don't really track that. Um and I I I think it's it's looking at what other KPIs we ought to be looking at. Um so we tend to obsess around revenue um and particularly uh um monthly recurring revenue, uh, because that always feels like if we've got that cracking on and we know our expenses are, and everything's gonna be be good. Um, but it seems like we really ought to know what our um average client, like longevity, I can't think of the right word, longevity, longevity, that sort of thing.

Paul Shrimpling 1:05:58

Lifetime value of a client is a good one.

Georgi Rollings 1:05:59

Yeah, and um you know client acquisition costs and that sort of thing. I think um we could we could do with being a little bit more.

Paul Shrimpling 1:06:08

That's very accountancy. Yeah, that's very accountancy of your judges. Well, can I just if I can chip in on that then, if you're going to go down that route, there's um and and you'll have heard this all before, I'm sure. Well, there's there's input KPIs and there's output KPIs. So lifetime value of a client is an output KPI. That's what you know, that's what no disrespect to everyone who pays our bills, i.e., accountants, very accountantsy, and absolutely relevant and has value. Absolutely it does. However, if you invest time, effort, and energy in that, why wouldn't you invest time, effort, and energy in the predictive input KPIs that deliver that result? So there's input KPIs and output KPIs, input. Activity causal KPIs that if we track them, we don't need to worry about lifetime value of the client because it'll look after itself.

Georgi Rollings 1:07:01

Okay.

Paul Shrimpling 1:07:02

Uh, and so lifetime value of a client. So, what things do you do, should you do in order to drive the lifetime value of a client? Well, one of them would be have a pricing conversation and share additional possible services and insights with that client that you otherwise would do at least once a year. You're already doing that. And so you don't need to track that KPI if that happens every year without fail with every client. If you're not already doing that, like most of the firms listening into this call, that would be a good input KPI for them to track. And then you record that every week or every month and use that as a uh way of driving accountability to drive that behavior. Um, I'd pose a question to you just because it occurred to me earlier and I didn't ask it because how many client meetings do you have with you a year with each client?

Georgi Rollings 1:07:48

It depends. Uh is it just I'd say for a business client, even if they're a small business client, there's going to be a minimum of two, um, which is quite minimal, but there'll be a pre-year-end chat. You know, how are your results trending? Do we need to do anything to bring that corporate tax bill down? Have you got an awful problem with your direct loan? And then a post-year end chat. Here it is. Um, we're trying to make sure that everybody then gets a third one, but we're not yet systemized it. So somebody will get like an ad hoc call at some point in the year. How's it going? Um, all right.

Paul Shrimpling 1:08:21

So that's called uh track and measure that KPI. That's an input KPI which will contribute to the lifetime value of your clients.

Georgi Rollings 1:08:30

Ah, okay.

Paul Shrimpling 1:08:31

So that's so uh I'm I'm I'm a big fan of output KPIs, but I'm a bigger fan of the input activity causal KPIs that you track and measure every week.

Speaker 5 1:08:47

Yeah.

Paul Shrimpling 1:08:48

Big pause, one or two, but don't get sucked into this. One or two every month, but it's weekly activity KPIs that ultimately drive the output KPI result. The ultimate one being bottom line profitability, cash in bank, and cap value of your business, the three three biggies. Yeah. Um and and accountants go to the output KPIs first. Um, someone who's close to a business would be tending to go to the input KPIs, and it's a brilliant conversation, input versus output KPIs to have a brilliant conversation to have with clients because they don't know what or how to do it.

Georgi Rollings 1:09:27

Yeah, love it.

Paul Shrimpling 1:09:28

Uh listen to listen to the podcast with Andrew Botham on KPIs.

Georgi Rollings 1:09:35

Okay.

Paul Shrimpling 1:09:36

He is a genius in this space, which is why we work with Andrew and get him in front of the countants. All right, so I'll put the link to Andrew's podcast in the uh show notes. We'll make sure you get a link to it. All right. Thank you. Um that's a nice way to finish in terms of something of value that you get, but also gives us an opportunity to have a conversation that helps everyone else that's listening in. Uh Georgie, thank you. Thank you, thank you, thank you. I know it was going to be good, uh, but it was great. Uh one might say it was remarkable. Of course I would. Um loved it, really enjoyed it. Thank you. It's made my Friday afternoon, and um, I can't help but want to wish you every success uh going forward, which you will naturally have because it sounds as though you're doing most of the right things in the right way.

Georgi Rollings 1:10:17

Um thank you very much.

Closing Thoughts Plus Academy Invitation

Paul Shrimpling 1:10:19

Thank you for joining us. At last, at last, I've got a firm, Georgie's firm, starfish accountants, who are creating and delivering a pricing conversation every year with every client about what they could should be buying from them going forwards. And the opportunity in there in terms of revenue and profit is significant. And it's a drum that I've been banging in the Accountants Growth Academy for a long time. It's the sort of thing that we'll help you with so that you can make the most of that opportunity. If you're interested in joining other ambitious accountants, then go to the show notes, please, and look out for the link to the Accountants Growth Academy and seek out a conversation with either Doug or I. We'd be happy to talk to you about it. You'll find more valuable discussions with the leaders of ambitious accounting firms at humanize the numbers.online. You can also sign up to be notified each time a new podcast is made available. You're about to hear a short excerpt from a podcast discussion with Dominic Ashley Timms of Star Manager. If you like what you hear and you want to hear the full podcast, go to humanize the numbers.online or go to your favorite podcast platform.

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